The angels expressed concern at the spread of corruption and death
Advertisement
by Saranidia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:48 pm
by Saranidia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:50 pm
by Hindia Belanda » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:53 pm
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Gutulia wrote:-snip-
Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?
Nederlands-Indië - Hindia BelandaIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
Overview - Guide to Hindia Belanda - Embassy Program - Fly with our imaginary airline - New Roepiah banknotes - Mobile App - IIWiki - NEWSIoannis Papakonstantinou, Senator (independent)
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:58 pm
Hindia Belanda wrote:The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?
I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.
Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.
Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.
If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm
by Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:21 pm
Hindia Belanda wrote:The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?
I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.
Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting The illegal state of Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.
Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.
If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
by The Eternal Aulus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:24 pm
Hindia Belanda wrote:The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?
I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.
Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.
Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.
If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
by Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:29 pm
Hindia Belanda wrote:The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?
I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.
Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.
Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.
If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
by Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Hindia Belanda wrote:I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.
Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.
Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.
If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?
by Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 pm
Gutulia wrote:The Eternal Aulus wrote:I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?
I think only few a bit radical likes FPI (Islamic defence front), Hizbut Tahrir (but was banned by the government for their activities because aims to turn the Indonesian republic state into a caliphate system.
212 movement can be said as momentary religious movement due to insulting the Qur'an and not organizations like Nahdlatul Ulama or Muhammadiyah. But after that, the 212 movement looks more towards the political movement because it supports one of the Indonesian president candidates.
News articles about HTI (Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia)
212 Movement with elements of politic
by Hindia Belanda » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:05 pm
The Eternal Aulus wrote:I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?
Nederlands-Indië - Hindia BelandaIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
Overview - Guide to Hindia Belanda - Embassy Program - Fly with our imaginary airline - New Roepiah banknotes - Mobile App - IIWiki - NEWSIoannis Papakonstantinou, Senator (independent)
by Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:27 pm
Negarakita wrote:Gutulia wrote:I think only few a bit radical likes FPI (Islamic defence front), Hizbut Tahrir (but was banned by the government for their activities because aims to turn the Indonesian republic state into a caliphate system.
212 movement can be said as momentary religious movement due to insulting the Qur'an and not organizations like Nahdlatul Ulama or Muhammadiyah. But after that, the 212 movement looks more towards the political movement because it supports one of the Indonesian president candidates.
News articles about HTI (Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia)
212 Movement with elements of politic
Plus JI.
by Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:55 pm
by Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:58 pm
Hindia Belanda wrote:Negarakita wrote:That's really interesting because I'd got the opposite idea from what I'd read
I mean, Muhammadiyah nowadays aren't as puritan as they used to be, but they're still more conservative compared to the NU. They were shaped by Wahhabi Salafism in their formative years after all.
by Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:58 pm
by Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:12 pm
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:14 pm
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:16 pm
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Tbh Muhammadiyyah sounds pretty cool. I just don't feel comfortable with their strong use of ijtihad and rejection of 'ulama.
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:36 pm
Samudera Darussalam wrote:El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Tbh Muhammadiyyah sounds pretty cool. I just don't feel comfortable with their strong use of ijtihad and rejection of 'ulama.
Eh, well, Muhammadiyah indeed use and support the use of ijtihad to solve problems. However, back when I was a student there they taught us that "the Quran comes first, then the Hadith/Sunnah, and the last ijtihad" as a consideration to make decisions. I don't know about the practice tho.
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm
by Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:46 pm
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh ok, that's cool of them. What are their views of 'ulama?
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Ancientania, Emotional Support Crocodile, Haganham, Hidrandia, Ifreann, Omphalos, Philjia, Tungstan, Valentine Z, Washington-Columbia
Advertisement