The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Some good news.

Yeah, a brother donated a good tens of thousands of dollars for the funeral. الحمد لله.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Disagree, modern Christianity do allow drugs, homosexuality, alcohol and stuff like this, modern Judaism too. Although Alcohol was always allowed in both religions (especially Christianity). But lets turn back to topic

Even certain branches of modern christianity including the new testament, in fact do not... Yeah it is offtopic indeed, and it sounds more like some christian sentiment here, hence I corrected that. In fact as far as I understand, the essence of the quran is to not harm yourself. Alcoholism undoubtebly does that. However, herbal spirits for ilnesses are a different story actualy, and that is exactly why there is such a huge room for debatte when it comes to alcohol in islam.

There's no debate about alcohol in Al-Islam. The debate is in using drugs that can intoxicate yet heal.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Even certain branches of modern christianity including the new testament, in fact do not... Yeah it is offtopic indeed, and it sounds more like some christian sentiment here, hence I corrected that. In fact as far as I understand, the essence of the quran is to not harm yourself. Alcoholism undoubtebly does that. However, herbal spirits for ilnesses are a different story actualy, and that is exactly why there is such a huge room for debatte when it comes to alcohol in islam.

There's no debate about alcohol in Al-Islam.

This is blatantly false. Large parts of the Alevi, Ismaili, and Hanafi traditions all permit alcohol.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There's no debate about alcohol in Al-Islam.

This is blatantly false. Large parts of the Alevi, Ismaili, and Hanafi traditions all permit alcohol.

I said Al-Islam, not Muslims. And Alevi and Isma'ili (I'm assuming Nizari?) views on Al-Islam are moot.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

This is blatantly false. Large parts of the Alevi, Ismaili, and Hanafi traditions all permit alcohol.

I said Al-Islam, not Muslims. And Alevi and Isma'ili (I'm assuming Nizari?) views on Al-Islam are moot.

No duh. Islam is an inanimate object and can't debate lmfao. It is the Muslims within it that debate. Your continued pedantry in this regard doesn't do anything but make you look foolish.


Also, tAkFiR "If they don't agree with me, they ain't Muslim!"

*yawn* do you have anything new, Amin?

[Negarakita]

I said Al-Islam, not Muslims. And Alevi and Isma'ili (I'm assuming Nizari?) views on Al-Islam are moot.

No duh. Islam is an inanimate object and can't debate lmfao. It is the Muslims within it that debate. Your continued pedantry in this regard doesn't do anything but make you look foolish.


Also, tAkFiR "If they don't agree with me, they ain't Muslim!"

*yawn* do you have anything new, Amin?

In his defence, most people don't see alevism as Muslim. Nizaris are more of a debated one

[Sahansahiye Iran]

No duh. Islam is an inanimate object and can't debate lmfao. It is the Muslims within it that debate. Your continued pedantry in this regard doesn't do anything but make you look foolish.


Also, tAkFiR "If they don't agree with me, they ain't Muslim!"

*yawn* do you have anything new, Amin?

In his defence, most people don't see alevism as Muslim. Nizaris are more of a debated one

Lol that doesn't change the fact of him having nitpicked what I said and then resorting to his usual tactic of takfir. No matter how "right" he is here specifically, it's a tired argument and weak as hell.

[Jolthig]

Whoever says alcohol isn't banned in Islam is misinformed. Sah is incorrect in his assertion that alcohol isn't banned in Islam.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Whoever says alcohol isn't banned in Islam is misinformed. Sah is incorrect in his assertion that alcohol isn't banned in Islam.

Tfw nothing I said is wrong, tho. Parts of the Alevi, Hanafi, and Ismaili traditions all permit alcohol.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/11646 since I know how much Amin loves Islamqa

"According to Imaam Abu Hanifa, alcohol from grapes or dates extract is
absolutely prohibited. However, drinks extracted from wheat, barley, sugar
cane, etc. is permissible to the extent that they do not intoxicate.
(Kawkabud Durri)"

[Jolthig]

Whoever says alcohol isn't banned in Islam is misinformed. Sah is incorrect in his assertion that alcohol isn't banned in Islam.

Tfw nothing I said is wrong, tho. Parts of the Alevi, Hanafi, and Ismaili traditions all permit alcohol.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/11646 since I know how much Amin loves Islamqa

"According to Imaam Abu Hanifa, alcohol from grapes or dates extract is
absolutely prohibited. However, drinks extracted from wheat, barley, sugar
cane, etc. is permissible to the extent that they do not intoxicate.
(Kawkabud Durri)"

Then this is the Ahmadi stance as well.

[Jolthig]

RIGHT ON THE SAH!

I hope you're still praying to Ahura Mazda for me. I, in turn, am praying to Allah for you. May God (whoever he is) guide us both.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Tfw nothing I said is wrong, tho. Parts of the Alevi, Hanafi, and Ismaili traditions all permit alcohol.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/11646 since I know how much Amin loves Islamqa

"According to Imaam Abu Hanifa, alcohol from grapes or dates extract is
absolutely prohibited. However, drinks extracted from wheat, barley, sugar
cane, etc. is permissible to the extent that they do not intoxicate.
(Kawkabud Durri)"

Then this is the Ahmadi stance as well.

That's alright. Amin is just gonna takfir you, too.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

RIGHT ON THE SAH!

I hope you're still praying to Ahura Mazda for me. I, in turn, am praying to Allah for you. May God (whoever he is) guide us both.

Of course I'm praying for you. I pray for Nazis to have the hate removed from their hearts, too.

[Jolthig]

Then this is the Ahmadi stance as well.

That's alright. Amin is just gonna takfir you, too.

He never did nor will he. He might just say it isn't Islamic but that's it.

[Jolthig]

RIGHT ON THE SAH!

I hope you're still praying to Ahura Mazda for me. I, in turn, am praying to Allah for you. May God (whoever he is) guide us both.

Of course I'm praying for you. I pray for Nazis to have the hate removed from their hearts, too.

Good. I pray for you everyday.

[Frievolk]

Ignoring the passive aggressive rhetoric between Khosro, Amin, and Jolthig, I think I need to assert that The question of "Is and Should Alcohol be Banned" isn't quite clear cut as the orthodoxy on both major denominations want you to believe.

We all know the chronology... or at least the commonly accepted one. Wine was allowed, then some asshole came to a Masjid drunk, so Allah went "don't come to my Masjids drunk plz", and since people didn't just not come to the place of worship drunk, he said "Aight, that's it. No more drinking for any of you. If I see any of you drunk in wine, you're gonna get whipped". (I'm paraphrasing. The actual story is a bit more complicated than that)

The problem is (and many Muslims, including high-up Muftis and Marjas argue about this), the law doesn't specifically say "Alcohol". The term "Khamr" (which means... literally anything that can and will intoxicate you) isn't about alcohol, Wine, especially the type that was common in 600 C.E. Arabia, was just very intoxicating. So that's how you get Marjas like Taleqani or Motahari arguing that low-alcohol drinks are a-ok, or why you get Muslims who refuse the orthodox chronology and go "I won't go to masjid drunk, I won't let drinking take rein of my life, and it'll be a-ok". From a purely argumentative standpoint, they aren't wrong (and believe me, it took me a long time to discover that)

[Kowani]

Prohibition of alcohol...one of the parts of Islam that I actually like.

[Frievolk]

Prohibition of alcohol...one of the parts of Islam that I actually like.

And one of the main reasons why Islam and Muslims have fundamental problems. Banning alcohol is a retarded idea with no benefits that only makes people unbelievably mentally unbalanced, you know that right?

[Kowani]

Prohibition of alcohol...one of the parts of Islam that I actually like.

And one of the main reasons why Islam and Muslims have fundamental problems. Banning alcohol is a retarded idea with no benefits that only makes people unbelievably mentally unbalanced, you know that right?

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical standpoint. In practice, it's a terrible idea. Although I don't think it's one of the major causes of Islam's problems.

[Frievolk]

And one of the main reasons why Islam and Muslims have fundamental problems. Banning alcohol is a retarded idea with no benefits that only makes people unbelievably mentally unbalanced, you know that right?

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical standpoint. In practice, it's a terrible idea. Although I don't think it's one of the major causes of Islam's problems.

It's not a major cause, it's more of a catalyst of why those causes turn into problems. The causes are more the inherent submissive fanaticism, the lack of self-determination (They ask someone else what everything means, and obey them "because they know better", for example) and of course the inherent bigoted and anti-human rights rhetoric of the religion itself.
But without the catalysts of "No Alcohol" (and similar retarded prohibitive stances), those causes wouldn't turn into legit problems.

[Jolthig]

And one of the main reasons why Islam and Muslims have fundamental problems. Banning alcohol is a retarded idea with no benefits that only makes people unbelievably mentally unbalanced, you know that right?

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical standpoint. In practice, it's a terrible idea. Although I don't think it's one of the major causes of Islam's problems.

I'll have to agree with Kowai here. Plus that's a terrible argument, Pilar. Banning alohol has nothing to do with the middle east problems.

Though I do agree we can't force people to stop drinking alcohol. At least in countries like here in the US. Because you know how the 17th amendment went lol

[Kowani]

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical standpoint. In practice, it's a terrible idea. Although I don't think it's one of the major causes of Islam's problems.

It's not a major cause, it's more of a catalyst of why those causes turn into problems. The causes are more the inherent submissive fanaticism, the lack of self-determination (They ask someone else what everything means, and obey them "because they know better", for example) and of course the inherent bigoted and anti-human rights rhetoric of the religion itself.
But without the catalysts of "No Alcohol" (and similar retarded prohibitive stances), those causes wouldn't turn into legit problems.

Okay, that's fair.

[Negarakita]

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical standpoint. In practice, it's a terrible idea. Although I don't think it's one of the major causes of Islam's problems.

I'll have to agree with Kowai here. Plus that's a terrible argument, Pilar. Banning alohol has nothing to do with the middle east problems.

Though I do agree we can't force people to stop drinking alcohol. At least in countries like here in the US. Because you know how the 17th amendment went lol

Prohibition in America actually wasn't that bad tho drinking went way down

[Greate Boston]

I'll have to agree with Kowai here. Plus that's a terrible argument, Pilar. Banning alohol has nothing to do with the middle east problems.

Though I do agree we can't force people to stop drinking alcohol. At least in countries like here in the US. Because you know how the 17th amendment went lol

Prohibition in America actually wasn't that bad tho drinking went way down

You've got to be kidding me. "Legal" drinking went way down. People scrambled for alcohol in everywhere, homemade alcohol (Which is dangerous, and can sometimes blind and/or kill you) spiked, and organized crime became an actual danger. I'm not sure I'd say it wasn't "That bad". There's a reason they decided to rescind that you know.

[Negarakita]

Prohibition in America actually wasn't that bad tho drinking went way down

You've got to be kidding me. "Legal" drinking went way down. People scrambled for alcohol in everywhere, homemade alcohol (Which is dangerous, and can sometimes blind and/or kill you) spiked, and organized crime became an actual danger. I'm not sure I'd say it wasn't "That bad". There's a reason they decided to rescind that you know.

Overall alcohol percentage went down immensely from pre banning levels. People drinking low grade alcohol is stupid and the fact that it ruled their lives so much that they risked their lives for it is sad. And alcohol wasn't the only reason for the rise in crime, there was also the whole urbanisation and stuff, plus rise in unemployment.