The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[A m e n r i a]

So new topic I want to discuss: Does anyone in here think the flood of Noah (as) was worldwide or localized? I say the latter because the context of the Quranic verses make it clear that it was in his region only, and Quran says Allah doesn't punish until a people are warned.

I vote localized, mostly ‘cause the story was ripped from the Babylonians.

Ancient Copyright infringement?

You don't "rip" true stories, mate. I think it's localized too though. God can't possibly punish the whole world just because some people decided to be dickheads.

[Jolthig]

Speaking about rationalism, I'm currently devouring a book about philosophy and Islam by Souleymane Bachir Diagne. It's a great book describing the history of philosophy with Ibn Rushd, Ibn Sina, Imam al-Ghazali and so forth. It even discusses the problems of Aqeedah during the early ages of Islam, for example the imprisonment of the Islamic scholar and founder of the Hanbali madhab Imam Hanbal.

I came to the conclusion that, although Imam al-Ghazali was against Aristotlean influences in Islam, he actually developed a really ''pure'' Islamic way of philosophy. He isn't that anti-philosophical as most people would argue, and people who claim he 'killed philosophy'' and ''plumbed the Muslims into the dark ages'' is simply laughable.

So new topic I want to discuss: Does anyone in here think the flood of Noah (as) was worldwide or localized? I say the latter because the context of the Quranic verses make it clear that it was in his region only, and Quran says Allah doesn't punish until a people are warned.

Good question and never really thought about that. Can you put sources for your conclusion? I might delve into it once I got good sources.

Yes, inshallah, once I have time. Been a really busy past couple of days cuz of college and work.

I'll be inshallah more active by the weekend and then back to the busy schedule haha

[Jolthig]

So new topic I want to discuss: Does anyone in here think the flood of Noah (as) was worldwide or localized? I say the latter because the context of the Quranic verses make it clear that it was in his region only, and Quran says Allah doesn't punish until a people are warned.

I vote localized, mostly ‘cause the story was ripped from the Babylonians.

Ancient Copyright infringement?

That's an unproven hypothesis though because the Hebrews (as evident by the Book of Genesis itself) had several oral traditions (same with the Arabs; the Quran only confirms the flood of Noah, but localizes it)

[Jolthig]

Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the company of one of his wives when a person happened to pass by them. He called him and when he came, he said to him: O so and so, she is my such and such wife. Thereupon he said, Allah's Messenger, if I were to doubt at all, I would have entertained no doubt about you in the least. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Verily Satan circulates in the body like blood. (Muslim)

[Greater Cesnica]

What is Islam's view on non-muslim's violent demise by means of murder, rape, etc. Specifically, do the victims of these atrocities go to Jahannam, or Paradise, etc.

Note, an emphasis is being weighted on child victims of these crimes, in relation to a particular group of people.

[Kowani]

I vote localized, mostly ‘cause the story was ripped from the Babylonians.

Ancient Copyright infringement?

That's an unproven hypothesis though because the Hebrews (as evident by the Book of Genesis itself) had several oral traditions (same with the Arabs; the Quran only confirms the flood of Noah, but localizes it)

Okay, if we’re being pedantic, Islam updated the Hebrew story, yes. However, the Hebrews stole it from the Babylonians. The story of Ushpenekar (I totally mispelled that, didn’t I), is where the Hebrew Flood comes from. Yeah, Flood myths were common, but the Hebrew Bible’s account is pretty much intellectual property theft.

[Senator Huey Long]

Okay, if we’re being pedantic, Islam updated the Hebrew story, yes. However, the Hebrews stole it from the Babylonians. The story of Ushpenekar (I totally mispelled that, didn’t I), is where the Hebrew Flood comes from. Yeah, Flood myths were common, but the Hebrew Bible’s account is pretty much intellectual property theft.

Can you provide any actual evidence that the Hebrews were aware of the Babylonian flood myth and stole from it? Correlation does not equal.. copysation?

[Seraven]

The title would be better with Saudi in front of Arabia.

It's always sunni in saudi arabia just flows better.

If you were on my team, I'd have fired you.

This title gives us Sunnis a slight bit of power over the Shia and Ibadi in Arabia tho.

Ibadi is also dominant in Oman. Just Oman, I think.

So even without the title Sunni has been the dominant force of Islam.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

This title gives us Sunnis a slight bit of power over the Shia and Ibadi in Arabia tho.

Ibadi is also dominant in Oman. Just Oman, I think.

So even without the title Sunni has been the dominant force of Islam.

Assalamu 'Alaikum wa RaHmatullahi wa Barakatuhu, haven't seen u in a while

[Sahansahiye Iran]

This title gives us Sunnis a slight bit of power over the Shia and Ibadi in Arabia tho.

Ibadi is also dominant in Oman. Just Oman, I think.

So even without the title Sunni has been the dominant force of Islam.

Shia is technically the majority in Bahrain, too. They just also happen to have an oppressive Sunni monarchy that imports foreign mercenaries from Sunni countries to put down protests.

[Seraven]

Ibadi is also dominant in Oman. Just Oman, I think.

So even without the title Sunni has been the dominant force of Islam.

Assalamu 'Alaikum wa RaHmatullahi wa Barakatuhu, haven't seen u in a while

Waalaikum'Salam, brother.

Yes, I've not been very active lately.

[Jolthig]

I'll be more active tomorrow or Saturday inshallah guys. I try to get enough sleep for college now.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

I'll be more active tomorrow or Saturday inshallah guys. I try to get enough sleep for college now.

Smh. Sleep is for the weak, akhi.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Speaking about rationalism, I'm currently devouring a book about philosophy and Islam by Souleymane Bachir Diagne. It's a great book describing the history of philosophy with Ibn Rushd, Ibn Sina, Imam al-Ghazali and so forth. It even discusses the problems of Aqeedah during the early ages of Islam, for example the imprisonment of the Islamic scholar and founder of the Hanbali madhab Imam Hanbal.

I came to the conclusion that, although Imam al-Ghazali was against Aristotlean influences in Islam, he actually developed a really ''pure'' Islamic way of philosophy. He isn't that anti-philosophical as most people would argue, and people who claim he 'killed philosophy'' and ''plumbed the Muslims into the dark ages'' is simply laughable.


Good question and never really thought about that. Can you put sources for your conclusion? I might delve into it once I got good sources.

Yes, inshallah, once I have time. Been a really busy past couple of days cuz of college and work.

I'll be inshallah more active by the weekend and then back to the busy schedule haha

Inshallah ameen, may Allah swt grant you strength to finish the work.

That's an unproven hypothesis though because the Hebrews (as evident by the Book of Genesis itself) had several oral traditions (same with the Arabs; the Quran only confirms the flood of Noah, but localizes it)

Okay, if we’re being pedantic, Islam updated the Hebrew story, yes. However, the Hebrews stole it from the Babylonians. The story of Ushpenekar (I totally mispelled that, didn’t I), is where the Hebrew Flood comes from. Yeah, Flood myths were common, but the Hebrew Bible’s account is pretty much intellectual property theft.

The Islamic narrative upon this is that there have been messengers before Islam (Noah as obviously before that) and that the Babylonians simply narrated down the story.

I mean, if something happens then two persons can narrate it to me and it's still valid. I don't see the reason why it should be implied theft.

What is Islam's view on non-muslim's violent demise by means of murder, rape, etc. Specifically, do the victims of these atrocities go to Jahannam, or Paradise, etc.

Note, an emphasis is being weighted on child victims of these crimes, in relation to a particular group of people.

In the end Allah swt decides who goes to Heaven and Hell. Being a Muslim is not a garuantee one goes into Heaven and the sole prerequisite for going to heaven, as far as I know, is believing in One God. Note that I say this because one may externally be a non-Muslim but the heart may be of a Muslim (ie believe in Tawhid). That said I remember a lecture of Nooman Ali that he said only the wickest of wickest people go to Hell. Hell does not have to eternal, as it's effectively a purgatory and I read a hadeeth/saw a lecture that at one time even Shaytan will leave the Hell.

It boils down to this I personally believe
1) Kids (until ~5 years) are in a state of fitra; ie natural Islam. On them is no blame or reward but their heart is of a believer, ergo Heaven.
2) NO Muslim can say who goes to Heaven or Hell, only the deeds which are allowed or not allowed by God and therefore result in sin. The end result is the deeds + intentions (plays a major role in Islam). Only God knows the true intention of people.
3) Believing in One God is the sole prerequisite of going into Heaven. Ergo, non-Muslims who believe in one God can theoretically go into Heaven. Dunno about atheists. Then again there are some hadeeths that say Hell will be empty in one day.

Allahu a3lem, God knows best.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

In the end Allah swt decides who goes to Heaven and Hell. Being a Muslim is not a garuantee one goes into Heaven and the sole prerequisite for going to heaven, as far as I know, is believing in One God. Note that I say this because one may externally be a non-Muslim but the heart may be of a Muslim (ie believe in Tawhid). That said I remember a lecture of Nooman Ali that he said only the wickest of wickest people go to Hell. Hell does not have to eternal, as it's effectively a purgatory and I read a hadeeth/saw a lecture that at one time even Shaytan will leave the Hell.

It boils down to this I personally believe
1) Kids (until ~5 years) are in a state of fitra; ie natural Islam. On them is no blame or reward but their heart is of a believer, ergo Heaven.
2) NO Muslim can say who goes to Heaven or Hell, only the deeds which are allowed or not allowed by God and therefore result in sin. The end result is the deeds + intentions (plays a major role in Islam). Only God knows the true intention of people.
3) Believing in One God is the sole prerequisite of going into Heaven. Ergo, non-Muslims who believe in one God can theoretically go into Heaven. Dunno about atheists. Then again there are some hadeeths that say Hell will be empty in one day.

Allahu a3lem, God knows best.

Can you show those aHadith and are they saheeh? And if they are graded as so, wouldn't they contradict the ayat that say (paraphrasing) "in Jahannam forever"?

[Jolthig]

I'll be more active tomorrow or Saturday inshallah guys. I try to get enough sleep for college now.

Smh. Sleep is for the weak, akhi.

Maybe you should move here and join my class and you'll understand why I place so much emphasis on sleep.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Smh. Sleep is for the weak, akhi.

Maybe you should move here and join my class and you'll understand why I place so much emphasis on sleep.

College is for the weak, too. You should drop out.

[Jolthig]

Maybe you should move here and join my class and you'll understand why I place so much emphasis on sleep.

College is for the weak, too. You should drop out.

Nope. Lol

[The Eternal Aulus]

In the end Allah swt decides who goes to Heaven and Hell. Being a Muslim is not a garuantee one goes into Heaven and the sole prerequisite for going to heaven, as far as I know, is believing in One God. Note that I say this because one may externally be a non-Muslim but the heart may be of a Muslim (ie believe in Tawhid). That said I remember a lecture of Nooman Ali that he said only the wickest of wickest people go to Hell. Hell does not have to eternal, as it's effectively a purgatory and I read a hadeeth/saw a lecture that at one time even Shaytan will leave the Hell.

It boils down to this I personally believe
1) Kids (until ~5 years) are in a state of fitra; ie natural Islam. On them is no blame or reward but their heart is of a believer, ergo Heaven.
2) NO Muslim can say who goes to Heaven or Hell, only the deeds which are allowed or not allowed by God and therefore result in sin. The end result is the deeds + intentions (plays a major role in Islam). Only God knows the true intention of people.
3) Believing in One God is the sole prerequisite of going into Heaven. Ergo, non-Muslims who believe in one God can theoretically go into Heaven. Dunno about atheists. Then again there are some hadeeths that say Hell will be empty in one day.

Allahu a3lem, God knows best.

Can you show those aHadith and are they saheeh? And if they are graded as so, wouldn't they contradict the ayat that say (paraphrasing) "in Jahannam forever"?

Here is a passage that seems to be more definite in limiting the time of hell, and thus more clearly in contradiction to the first block of verses:

[On that Day,] verily, hell will lie in wait [for those who deny the truth] – a goal for all who are wont to transgress the bounds of what is right! In it shall they remain for a long time. S. 78:21-23 Asad

The late Muslim scholar and translator Muhammad Asad noted that the Arabic word for "long time" does not mean forever:

12 I.e., not forever, since the term huqb or hiqbah (of which ahqab is the plural) denotes no more than "a period of time" or "a long time" (Jawhari) - according to some authorities, "eighty years", according to others, "a year" or simply "years" (Asas, Qamus, Lisan al-Arab, etc.). But however one defines this term, it is obvious that it signifies a limited period of time, and not eternity: and this is in tune with many indications in the Qur'an to the effect that the suffering described as "hell" is not eternal (see note 114 on the last paragraph of 6:128), as well as with several authentic sayings of the Prophet (e.g., the one quoted in note 10 on 40:12). (The Message of the Qur’an; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

Here, also, is what he wrote regarding Q. 6:128:

114 I.e., unless He graces them with His mercy (see verse 12 of this surah, and the corresponding note). Some of the great Muslim theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase occurring in 11 : 107 (as well as from several well-authenticated sayings of the Prophet) that - contrary to the bliss of paradise, which will be of unlimited duration - the suffering of the sinners in the life to come will be limited by God's mercy. (See in this connection the hadith quoted in note 10 on 40: 12.) (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

Muhammad is reported to have made the following comments concerning people exiting hell:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Allah's Apostle said, "When the people of Paradise have entered Paradise, and the people of the Fire have entered the Fire, Allah will say, ‘Take out (of the Fire) whoever has got faith equal to a mustard seed in his heart.’ They will come out, and by that time they would have burnt and became like coal, and then they will be thrown into the river of Al-Hayyat (life) and they will spring up just as a seed grows on the bank of a rainwater stream." The Prophet said, "Don't you see that the germinating seed comes out yellow and twisted?" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 565)

And:

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Some people who will be scorched by Hell (Fire) as a punishment for sins they have committed, and then Allah will admit them into Paradise by the grant of His Mercy. These people will be called, ‘Al-Jahannamiyyin’ (the people of Hell)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 542)

Again:

… We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?"

He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe.

"They will say, ‘O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.’ Allah will say, ‘Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.’ Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), ‘Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.’ They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then Allah will say, ‘Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant),’ and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:--

‘Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.’ (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, ‘Now remains My Intercession.’ He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life.

They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, ‘These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).’ Then it will be said to them, ‘For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.’" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

There is a difference in opinion. Allahu a3lem.

[Jolthig]

There are some ahadith graded Sahih by Darusalam on some Hadith.

As for us Ahmadis, universal salvation and the temporary nature of hell is our doctrines

[Auze]

That's an unproven hypothesis though because the Hebrews (as evident by the Book of Genesis itself) had several oral traditions (same with the Arabs; the Quran only confirms the flood of Noah, but localizes it)

Okay, if we’re being pedantic, Islam updated the Hebrew story, yes. However, the Hebrews stole it from the Babylonians. The story of Ushpenekar (I totally mispelled that, didn’t I), is where the Hebrew Flood comes from. Yeah, Flood myths were common, but the Hebrew Bible’s account is pretty much intellectual property theft.

Which Babylon? If it is the Neo-Babylonian empire then it is probably the other way around.

[The Eternal Aulus]

There are some ahadith graded Sahih by Darusalam on some Hadith.

As for us Ahmadis, universal salvation and the temporary nature of hell is our doctrines

I can see why people support either universal salvation and eternal damnation.

In the end God knows best, and that's the spirit of Islam for me. We have our differences but that doesn't keep us from shouting la illa ill Allah wa Muhamaddan Rasulallah together.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I'm talking about Islamic govs, not crazy stuff.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did,[61] kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
— Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4447

1: Killing =/= stoning
2: I can't find that particular Hadith, but that can also be found here and here. The actual punishment of stoning can be found here. Except you can't even use these aHadith because they aren't SaHeeH narrations.
3: The actual punishment can be found here

[Kubumba Tribe]

In addition, Reikoku, this doesn't apply to you.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

1: Killing =/= stoning

I'm curious. Is there an instance in the ahadith where stoning is prescribed specifically without killing?