The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Islamic Rastali-Yaslin]

Assalamualaikum all of you

[Kubumba Tribe]

Show me

That surah has nothing to do with obeying kufr govs. That talks about respecting non-Muslims and their religions. The only way that this would work is if the kufr govs allowed Muslims to use Shari'ah.

At work, akhi. Perhaps later tonight inshallah.

Then why are you debating me? Do your work!

Ok, but why can't it apply to secular governments either?

Because it's talking about people, not governments. Another reason is because putting kufr law above the laws of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is haram.

The majority of the world doesn't want Sharia.

Which does not matter at all. The law is the law whether you like it or not.

Besides, Hadith says the Dajjal is unbeatable and anyone who resists it will be defeated. Do you think Palestine is succeeding against Israel?

What do any of these have to do with the topic?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Assalamualaikum all of you

Wa'Alaikum Assalam, how are you?

[Islamic Rastali-Yaslin]

Alhamdulillah,I'm fine

[Jolthig]

At work, akhi. Perhaps later tonight inshallah.

Then why are you debating me? Do your work!

Ok, but why can't it apply to secular governments either?

Because it's talking about people, not governments. Another reason is because putting kufr law above the laws of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is haram.

The majority of the world doesn't want Sharia.

Which does not matter at all. The law is the law whether you like it or not.

Besides, Hadith says the Dajjal is unbeatable and anyone who resists it will be defeated. Do you think Palestine is succeeding against Israel?

What do any of these have to do with the topic?

We can have a scholarly discussion sometime tonight or tomorrow. I debate cuz it's fun

[Kubumba Tribe]

Then why are you debating me? Do your work!

Because it's talking about people, not governments. Another reason is because putting kufr law above the laws of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is haram.

Which does not matter at all. The law is the law whether you like it or not.

What do any of these have to do with the topic?

We can have a scholarly discussion sometime tonight or tomorrow. I debate cuz it's fun

>debate
>fun
You need to go see a doctor lol

[Jolthig]

We can have a scholarly discussion sometime tonight or tomorrow. I debate cuz it's fun

>debate
>fun
You need to go see a doctor lol

Still fun regardless lol

[Jolthig]

Not really. Not unless they are ordering to carry out a sin, friend.

Hence why I said that it supports my point.

According to your interpretation, right?

Depends, what is said nation that claims to be Islamic doing?

Where does it say in that Hadith Muslim rulers only? Please enlighten us.

And how is paying a tax a sin if I read your response right?

[Jolthig]

Tell me this, Amin. If you oppose secularism so much, why did your family come here then or converted?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Tell me this, Amin. If you oppose secularism so much, why did your family come here then or converted?

My family didn't come from anywhere, and they converted because they see Al-Islam as the truth. Also, I don't oppose secularism if it wasn't forced on Muslims.

[Jolthig]

Tell me this, Amin. If you oppose secularism so much, why did your family come here then or converted?

My family didn't come from anywhere, and they converted because they see Al-Islam as the truth. Also, I don't oppose secularism if it wasn't forced on Muslims.

I'm not sure of your personal situation, but for mine, no one is forcing secularism down my throat. As a matter in fact, people are very welcoming of my conversion, and I will again repeat had it not been for secularism I and even you would be Protestant Christians. Can you at least say that's one positive of having a secular government?

As a matter in fact, you even believe in some elements of secularism because you don't believe in forcing Islam on non Muslims. Your proposed government may not be secular, yet it's semi secular to the extent it allows non Muslims to be who they are.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Can you at least say that's one positive of having a secular government?

No. Secularism is kufr, and I oppose kufr

As a matter in fact, you even believe in some elements of secularism because you don't believe in forcing Islam on non Muslims. Your proposed government may not be secular, yet it's semi secular to the extent it allows non Muslims to be who they are.

That's not secularism, that's Al-Islam. Also, your conversion would still have happened regardless of secularism existing.

[Jolthig]

Can you at least say that's one positive of having a secular government?

No. Secularism is kufr, and I oppose kufr

Of course. I agree with you that secularism in the Western sense, is not Islamic, but it allows us to freely practice our faith just like the First Amendment says. There are plenty of things I disprove of the Western countries, yet I still advocate for secularism.

As a matter in fact, you even believe in some elements of secularism because you don't believe in forcing Islam on non Muslims. Your proposed government may not be secular, yet it's semi secular to the extent it allows non Muslims to be who they are.

That's not secularism, that's Al-Islam. Also, your conversion would still have happened regardless of secularism existing.

Then Allah favors semi-secularism for an Islamic government then. Especially historically.

Here's a definition of secularism (there are two but I'm focusing on one):

From Google:
sec·u·lar·ism
ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
noun: secularism
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.
"he believes that secularism means no discrimination against anybody in the name of religion"

The holy Quran says (2:256):

"There is no compulsion in religion."

So you believe in secularism to a certain extent for non Muslims.

[Kubumba Tribe]

No. Secularism is kufr, and I oppose kufr

Of course. I agree with you that secularism in the Western sense, is not Islamic, but it allows us to freely practice our faith just like the First Amendment says. There are plenty of things I disprove of the Western countries, yet I still advocate for secularism.

There is no secularism in Al-Islam. Except for the irreligious.

Then Allah favors semi-secularism for an Islamic government then. Especially historically.

Here's a definition of secularism (there are two but I'm focusing on one):

From Google:
sec·u·lar·ism
ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
noun: secularism
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.
"he believes that secularism means no discrimination against anybody in the name of religion"

The holy Quran says (2:256):

"There is no compulsion in religion."

So you believe in secularism to a certain extent for non Muslims.

For the irreligious, yes.

[Jolthig]

Of course. I agree with you that secularism in the Western sense, is not Islamic, but it allows us to freely practice our faith just like the First Amendment says. There are plenty of things I disprove of the Western countries, yet I still advocate for secularism.

There is no secularism in Al-Islam. Except for the irreligious.

Then Allah favors semi-secularism for an Islamic government then. Especially historically.

Here's a definition of secularism (there are two but I'm focusing on one):

From Google:
sec·u·lar·ism
ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
noun: secularism
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.
"he believes that secularism means no discrimination against anybody in the name of religion"

The holy Quran says (2:256):

"There is no compulsion in religion."

So you believe in secularism to a certain extent for non Muslims.

For the irreligious, yes.

That's the point I was trying to make. You don't completely oppose secularism. Only on a full scale

[Kubumba Tribe]

There is no secularism in Al-Islam. Except for the irreligious.

For the irreligious, yes.

That's the point I was trying to make. You don't completely oppose secularism. Only on a full scale

True.

[Jolthig]

That's the point I was trying to make. You don't completely oppose secularism. Only on a full scale

True.

Here's another thought I had: You can believe in Islamic states for every country, but also acknowledge that it probably won't happen any time soon. Simply because Allah won't allow it to happen. It is only he that converts.

Also, in away, if your system somehow came to power, that's in a way, forcing an Islamic government on the non Muslims who don't want a Islamic government which violates Quran 2:256. Just a thought for you to reflect on.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Do Ahmadis consider themselves to be Sunni or in a category all to themselves?

[Jolthig]

Do Ahmadis consider themselves to be Sunni or in a category all to themselves?

We are Sunni to the extent that we believe in the six books of Hadith by Sunni scholars and that we recognize all the caliphs before Ali as true Khalifas.

What makes us different from sunnis is who the Messiah is and Jesus

[Democratic Communist Federation]

We are Sunni to the extent that we believe in the six books of Hadith by Sunni scholars and that we recognize all the caliphs before Ali as true Khalifas.

What makes us different from sunnis is who the Messiah is and Jesus

Okay, then a second question: How do you explain the historical overlap between the Sharifian Caliphate (and two earlier Caliphates) and the Ahmadi Caliphate?

On the other hand, if you are talking only about the caliphs up to ʿAliyy, that is just the first four caliphs. What about the caliphs after ʿAliyy?

[Kubumba Tribe]

True.

Here's another thought I had: You can believe in Islamic states for every country, but also acknowledge that it probably won't happen any time soon. Simply because Allah won't allow it to happen. It is only he that converts.

I'm talking about forming Islamic govs, not converting people.

Also, in away, if your system somehow came to power, that's in a way, forcing an Islamic government on the non Muslims who don't want a Islamic government which violates Quran 2:256. Just a thought for you to reflect on.

Shari'ah is only for Muslims, not non-Muslims. So no, I'm not violating Shari'ah.

We are Sunni to the extent that we believe in the six books of Hadith by Sunni scholars and that we recognize all the caliphs before Ali as true Khalifas.

What makes us different from sunnis is who the Messiah is and Jesus

Okay, then a second question: How do you explain the historical overlap between the Sharifian Caliphate (and two earlier Caliphates) and the Ahmadi Caliphate?

There is no Khilafah right now.

On the other hand, if you are talking only about the caliphs up to ʿAliyy, that is just the first four caliphs. What about the caliphs after ʿAliyy?

Arguably, there wasn't really a Khilafah after 'Ali (RA). Some Muslims put Hasan (RA) as 5th Khalifah, but nonetheless, there technically weren't any Khulafa- after the Rashidun Khilafah.

[Jolthig]

We are Sunni to the extent that we believe in the six books of Hadith by Sunni scholars and that we recognize all the caliphs before Ali as true Khalifas.

What makes us different from sunnis is who the Messiah is and Jesus

Okay, then a second question: How do you explain the historical overlap between the Sharifian Caliphate (and two earlier Caliphates) and the Ahmadi Caliphate?

On the other hand, if you are talking only about the caliphs up to ʿAliyy, that is just the first four caliphs. What about the caliphs after ʿAliyy?

What is the Sharifian Caliphate? Never heard of it. Though I'll give an answer anyway. In Ahmadiyya doctrine, when a khalifa is elected, it is entirely the will of God. So basically god chosing a Khalifa.

We believe Muawiddya (probably spelt that terribly wrong) of the founder of the Umayyad Caliphate to be a political khalifa along with the Khalifas that came after him. Nevertheless, he was a righteous manike the other companions of Muhammad.

[Kubumba Tribe]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharifian_Caliphate

[La Nueva Union Americana]

I'm not sure of your personal situation, but for mine, no one is forcing secularism down my throat. As a matter in fact, people are very welcoming of my conversion, and I will again repeat had it not been for secularism I and even you would be Protestant Christians. Can you at least say that's one positive of having a secular government?

Interesting. So, you converted from Protestantism to Ahmadiyya Islam? If you don't mind me asking, how did that come about?

[Jolthig]

I'm not sure of your personal situation, but for mine, no one is forcing secularism down my throat. As a matter in fact, people are very welcoming of my conversion, and I will again repeat had it not been for secularism I and even you would be Protestant Christians. Can you at least say that's one positive of having a secular government?

Interesting. So, you converted from Protestantism to Ahmadiyya Islam? If you don't mind me asking, how did that come about?

Not protestantism. Atheism. Only referenced protestantism because the settlers from England in the 1600s were Protestants and eventually, the colonies and the US on it's founding became secular