The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Negarakita]

I'm asking what you mean by it not being a literal document
https://www.google.com/search?safe=stri ... Yk5LR7HGNQ
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document:

"A document is a written, drawn, presented, or memorialized representation of thought."

According to these, the Holy Qur'an - or literally anything for that matter - is a document.

He probably means "a document you have to accept and follow word for word as is"
At least, I'm assuming. I'm similarly confused at the term "literal document" lol

The fact that the middle east believe such a vool exist is why they are so bad

[Kubumba Tribe]

He probably means "a document you have to accept and follow word for word as is"
At least, I'm assuming. I'm similarly confused at the term "literal document" lol

The fact that the middle east believe such a vool exist is why they are so bad

[Red Party]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

Iran has a 93-97% literacy rate amongst adults, one of the highest student to workforce ratios in the world at 10.2%, the largest private university in the world, ... What more education do you want? Overall, Iran, a Muslim nation, is fairly advanced in education amongst developing countries.

[Frievolk]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

Iran has a 93-97% literacy rate amongst adults, one of the highest student to workforce ratios in the world at 10.2%, the largest private university in the world, ... What more education do you want? Overall, Iran, a Muslim nation, is fairly advanced in education amongst developing countries.

Iran's only Muslim if you go by the official Iranian censi though. In truth, the Urban Iranian is more likely to be a Jew than they are to be a Muslim at this point.

[Jolthig]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

Tell that to my community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Has many educated people such as my friends, Qasim Rashid and Kashif Chaudhry.

I agree much of the middle east is uneducated, but using your logic, the same thing can be said about Evangelical Christianity, yet not all of them are uneducated.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Iran has a 93-97% literacy rate amongst adults, one of the highest student to workforce ratios in the world at 10.2%, the largest private university in the world, ... What more education do you want? Overall, Iran, a Muslim nation, is fairly advanced in education amongst developing countries.

Iran's only Muslim if you go by the official Iranian censi though. In truth, the Urban Iranian is more likely to be a Jew than they are to be a Muslim at this point.

Even assuming high apostasy rates and the like, it's still very likely that Iran is majority Muslim, Pilar. And even if it isn't, the country is still run as a Muslim country and is largely culturally Muslim.

[Red Party]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

Tell that to my community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Has many educated people such as my friends, Qasim Rashid and Kashif Chaudhry.

I agree much of the middle east is uneducated, but using your logic, the same thing can be said about Evangelical Christianity, yet not all of them are uneducated.

I should clarify, by "educated", I mean sensible in the head. I don't believe that community stones gays, however, I could be wrong.

[Red Party]

Iran's only Muslim if you go by the official Iranian censi though. In truth, the Urban Iranian is more likely to be a Jew than they are to be a Muslim at this point.

Even assuming high apostasy rates and the like, it's still very likely that Iran is majority Muslim, Pilar. And even if it isn't, the country is still run as a Muslim country and is largely culturally Muslim.

it being culturally Muslim holds it back.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Islam has and will always strive off of those uneducated, and the only cure is to educate the Middle East.

Tell that to my community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Has many educated people such as my friends, Qasim Rashid and Kashif Chaudhry.

I agree much of the middle east is uneducated, but using your logic, the same thing can be said about Evangelical Christianity, yet not all of them are uneducated.

The Aga Khan Education Services operates 300 schools worldwide and educates more than 54,000 students in Africa and Asia. More schools are also being built in Madagascar and Kyrgyzstan. This is in addition to the Aga Khan Academies that educates 14,000 students and Aga Khan University, ranked amongst the 300 best in the world for medicine.

To say that Islam thrives on a lack of education is disingenuous or ignorant.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Even assuming high apostasy rates and the like, it's still very likely that Iran is majority Muslim, Pilar. And even if it isn't, the country is still run as a Muslim country and is largely culturally Muslim.

it being culturally Muslim holds it back.

No? It being poor, under an embargo for the last 30 years, and being in a hotspot region holds it back.

[Red Party]

it being culturally Muslim holds it back.

No? It being poor, under an embargo for the last 30 years, and being in a hotspot region holds it back.

“hotspot region”, surely you mean islamic?
the entire middle east is “held back”, and you still refuse to see the common denominator.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

No? It being poor, under an embargo for the last 30 years, and being in a hotspot region holds it back.

“hotspot region”, surely you mean islamic?
the entire middle east is “held back”, and you still refuse to see the common denominator.

I mean, the fact of it being in the Golden Crescent and in a region dominated by warfare, Islamic or not.

[Jolthig]

Tell that to my community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Has many educated people such as my friends, Qasim Rashid and Kashif Chaudhry.

I agree much of the middle east is uneducated, but using your logic, the same thing can be said about Evangelical Christianity, yet not all of them are uneducated.

I should clarify, by "educated", I mean sensible in the head. I don't believe that community stones gays, however, I could be wrong.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Still, the Islam as preached by Muhammad (especially from the Qu'ran) does not advocate for what many Muslims do in the middle east. As a matter in fact, many of them are ignorant of the Quran and hadith. They're only told what their mullahs tell them; like sheep led by a Sheppard.

No, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, doesn't believe in any of that

[Red Party]

I should clarify, by "educated", I mean sensible in the head. I don't believe that community stones gays, however, I could be wrong.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Still, the Islam as preached by Muhammad (especially from the Qu'ran) does not advocate for what many Muslims do in the middle east. As a matter in fact, many of them are ignorant of the Quran and hadith. They're only told what their mullahs tell them; like sheep led by a Sheppard.

No, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, doesn't believe in any of that

The Quran advocates for stoning gays with limestone. If that is not directly advocating for death, I have no clue what is.

[Frievolk]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Still, the Islam as preached by Muhammad (especially from the Qu'ran) does not advocate for what many Muslims do in the middle east. As a matter in fact, many of them are ignorant of the Quran and hadith. They're only told what their mullahs tell them; like sheep led by a Sheppard.

No, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, doesn't believe in any of that

The Quran advocates for stoning gays with limestone. If that is not directly advocating for death, I have no clue what is.

Alright, I've read the Quran from back to back at least twice when I was a Muslim and another time when I was not. I'm pretty sure that Quran does not talk about Rajm at all, much less Rajm about the Gays. Do you have any source?

[Jolthig]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Still, the Islam as preached by Muhammad (especially from the Qu'ran) does not advocate for what many Muslims do in the middle east. As a matter in fact, many of them are ignorant of the Quran and hadith. They're only told what their mullahs tell them; like sheep led by a Sheppard.

No, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, doesn't believe in any of that

The Quran advocates for stoning gays with limestone. If that is not directly advocating for death, I have no clue what is.

There is no verse that prescribes a punishment for stoning gays with limestone.

You may be referring to the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot fails to get the city to worship Allah and after he and his family leave, his wife, and the people of the cities we're punished with stones from the sky.

These are directly divine punishment and not a prescribed punishment to the Muslims. There is no stoning for gays.

There are some hadith considered Sahih by Sunnis that say both Muslim and non Muslim gays should be stoned to death, but my Community rejects these Hadith as it goes against the Qu'ran of no compulsion in religion.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Red Party, stop. You're not speaking with knowledge on this subject.

[Red Party]

Red Party, stop. You're not speaking with knowledge on this subject.

See, that’s the issue with our religion. Whenever someone has an opinion contrary to Islam, those who support Islam adamantly will simply resort to the notion that those who they argue against are uneducated. With all due respect, that notion offends me. I was born into a Shia family, I observe the world around me. I don’t need a degree in “Islamic Interpatation” to make a point contrary to yours.

[Red Party]

The Quran advocates for stoning gays with limestone. If that is not directly advocating for death, I have no clue what is.

There is no verse that prescribes a punishment for stoning gays with limestone.

You may be referring to the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot fails to get the city to worship Allah and after he and his family leave, his wife, and the people of the cities we're punished with stones from the sky.

These are directly divine punishment and not a prescribed punishment to the Muslims. There is no stoning for gays.

There are some hadith considered Sahih by Sunnis that say both Muslim and non Muslim gays should be stoned to death, but my Community rejects these Hadith as it goes against the Qu'ran of no compulsion in religion.

Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)

My mistake, it’s brimestone.

[Red Party]

The Quran advocates for stoning gays with limestone. If that is not directly advocating for death, I have no clue what is.

Alright, I've read the Quran from back to back at least twice when I was a Muslim and another time when I was not. I'm pretty sure that Quran does not talk about Rajm at all, much less Rajm about the Gays. Do you have any source?

Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)

There you are. Seems very easy to miss, although you’ve apparently read it front to back and payed great attention.

[Jolthig]

There is no verse that prescribes a punishment for stoning gays with limestone.

You may be referring to the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot fails to get the city to worship Allah and after he and his family leave, his wife, and the people of the cities we're punished with stones from the sky.

These are directly divine punishment and not a prescribed punishment to the Muslims. There is no stoning for gays.

There are some hadith considered Sahih by Sunnis that say both Muslim and non Muslim gays should be stoned to death, but my Community rejects these Hadith as it goes against the Qu'ran of no compulsion in religion.

Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)
Ah, seems I'd be stoned.
My mistake, it’s brimestone.

Again, story of Lot. It's not a prescribed law. This part of the Quran is telling a divine punishment; one of past divine punishments for those who disobeyed prophets and attempted to drive them out of their towns.

Red Party, stop. You're not speaking with knowledge on this subject.

See, that’s the issue with our religion. Whenever someone has an opinion contrary to Islam, those who support Islam adamantly will simply resort to the notion that those who they argue against are uneducated. With all due respect, that notion offends me. I was born into a Shia family, I observe the world around me. I don’t need a degree in “Islamic Interpatation” to make a point contrary to yours.

You don't have to be a non Muslim to be ignorant of the Qu'ran. I've debated a few Muslims who barely knew Islamic literature in the past.

[Red Party]

snip

I never said that? I’m just well aware of the literature. I don’t understand how your opinion as an Ahmadi is an any way relevant when in the eyes of most Islamic scholars your entire religion is based on Blasephmy and Fraud.

[Jolthig]

snip

I never said that? I’m just well aware of the literature. I don’t understand how your opinion as an Ahmadi is an any way relevant when in the eyes of most Islamic scholars your entire religion is based on Blasephmy and Fraud.

1. The majority aren't always right (and i like how you have no accurate answer to my rebuttal and instead attack my sect; it proves you have no valid argument)
2. There is no evidence that there is fraud in Ahmadiyya
3. Ahmadiyya is the same Religion as revealed to prophet Muhammad (saw)

[Red Party]

I never said that? I’m just well aware of the literature. I don’t understand how your opinion as an Ahmadi is an any way relevant when in the eyes of most Islamic scholars your entire religion is based on Blasephmy and Fraud.

1. The majority aren't always right (and i like how you have no accurate answer to my rebuttal and instead attack my sect; it proves you have no valid argument)
2. There is no evidence that there is fraud in Ahmadiyya
3. Ahmadiyya is the same Religion as revealed to prophet Muhammad (saw)

The whole sect is built on an idea that is simply blasemphous in Islam. You’re not a Muslim if you believe that there was a prophet after the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. It’s clear cut and simple. You’re part of a tiny group of individuals that believes it is correct, please don’t argue on behalf of Islam.