The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[True Alimeria]

Er thanks but I actually meant the El-Fatiha translated in Latin language.

Why

Why not?

#DeusMaximus

[Aulus Maximus]

Eid Mubarak everyone


Wa iyyaq ya akhi.


I disagree. Zaydis for example demand to remove an unjust leader. One could say that the actions of Hussayn ibn Ali for example also is a form of questioning authority, if not simply demanding its removal.

But then again there are teachers who don't like specific questions, usually because they do not know the answer and are too proud to admit that. I see it with colleagues and sometimes myself as well (middle school teacher in religion and philosophy here).


That's a gross generalization of Shias in general.

Zaydis are really a different topic as there has never really been a power Zaydi state or nation like the way more mainstream Jafari Shias have like the Safavids, Fatimids and others.

That's why I am careful using the word Shia to refer to Twelver Shias. I mean commonly the word Shia is used for the Twelver Shias but it is dangerous at it refers to more than just the Twelvers.

[Khataiy]

Zaydis are really a different topic as there has never really been a power Zaydi state or nation like the way more mainstream Jafari Shias have like the Safavids, Fatimids and others.

That's why I am careful using the word Shia to refer to Twelver Shias. I mean commonly the word Shia is used for the Twelver Shias but it is dangerous at it refers to more than just the Twelvers.

Ismailis too, but it's pretty well established what it means when people say Shia or Shiite, Im not sure if this is true or not but I've heard some Zaydis dont even call themselves Shia and I have heard some Shias like Jafari Twelvers call themselves Sunni and claim Shias are real Sunnis, it's all really relative, but there's a pretty standaridzed well defined and understood definition.

[Khataiy]

Why

Why not?

#DeusMaximus

It's not nessicary if you should learn any language it really should be Arabic because all of our religious texts are in Arabic.

[True Alimeria]

Why not?

#DeusMaximus

It's not nessicary if you should learn any language it really should be Arabic because all of our religious texts are in Arabic.

Well I'm just curious and want to know how it would look like in Latin.
I of course know the Surah in Arabic.

[Frievolk]

I disagree honestly. But do clarify what you mean with questioning authority, because it's not clear for me.

First, allow me to clarify that when I say "Shia", I mean The Twelver Shia. The Sufis have yet to become relevant in political Islam (apart from fringe groups in Iran like the so-called Re-start) and the other forms of Political Shia are decidedly built on questioning authority (see: The the Hashshashin)

When I say Questioning Authority, I mean exactly that. Keeping the authority (The Imam, The Amir, The Ayatollah, and even Prophet and God themselves) in check, and calling them out for their bullshit. In Traditional Islam, The Jews (I mean the historical religious faction) are hated, particularly by the Shia, mostly because they had this tendency of calling YHWH out for his bullshit (they actually pride themselves on that, if the few Jews I've talked with are to be trusted, but don't quote me on that) . In Iran in particular "Irad-e-Bani-Esraeili" (ایراد بنی اسرائیلی) or 'Banu Israelite complaint' is used for repeated questions of an authority and informally means repeated complaints, and has long since been viewed as a negative trait in The Cutlural Shia.

In Historical Islam, Aisha was one of the few people in the Sadr-i-Islam period that questioned Muhammad everytime she thought he was wrong. And that is the primary reason why the Twelvers hate her, though, I have to admit her enmity with Ali is also an important factor, especially considering the Shia's rather cult of personality built around the Imams (the 14 children of the line of Fatima).

[Khataiy]

It's not nessicary if you should learn any language it really should be Arabic because all of our religious texts are in Arabic.

Well I'm just curious and want to know how it would look like in Latin.
I of course know the Surah in Arabic.

You can copy and paste the Arabic text from a Quran website like Quran411 then put it in google translate to Latin, and yes they do have Latin.

[True Alimeria]

Well I'm just curious and want to know how it would look like in Latin.
I of course know the Surah in Arabic.

You can copy and paste the Arabic text from a Quran website like Quran411 then put it in google translate to Latin, and yes they do have Latin.

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

[Khataiy]

You can copy and paste the Arabic text from a Quran website like Quran411 then put it in google translate to Latin, and yes they do have Latin.

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

Oh

[Jolthig]

I'm honestly not sure who knows Latin haha.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You can copy and paste the Arabic text from a Quran website like Quran411 then put it in google translate to Latin, and yes they do have Latin.

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

Don't use Google Translate for dead languages lol, it's never even close to right for anything beyond the most absolute basic words.

There are a few Latin speakers on NSG, I believe Risottia has at least a working knowledge of the language if you want to TG him.

[Aulus Maximus]

When I say Questioning Authority, I mean exactly that. Keeping the authority (The Imam, The Amir, The Ayatollah, and even Prophet and God themselves) in check, and calling them out for their bullshit.

For that, Ali Shariati and the Alevis might be an interesting read.

In Traditional Islam, The Jews (I mean the historical religious faction) are hated, particularly by the Shia, mostly because they had this tendency of calling YHWH out for his bullshit (they actually pride themselves on that, if the few Jews I've talked with are to be trusted, but don't quote me on that).

The Banu Quraysh are often a tribe being used to say that the Jews are spreading mischief about God and so forth, but that's an interpretation.

Coming from an educational facility with Jewish tendencies I disagree that the Jews call out God for his bullshit. What I do think is that the Jews often complain, or whail, about the suffering or happenings to God, asking why God allows this to happen.

In Iran in particular "Irad-e-Bani-Esraeili" (ایراد بنی اسرائیلی) or 'Banu Israelite complaint' is used for repeated questions of an authority and informally means repeated complaints, and has long since been viewed as a negative trait in The Cutlural Shia.

I take your word for this, I didn't know about it.

[True Alimeria]

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

Don't use Google Translate for dead languages lol, it's never even close to right for anything beyond the most absolute basic words.

There are a few Latin speakers on NSG, I believe Risottia has at least a working knowledge of the language if you want to TG him.

Thanks dude.

[Negarakita]

Finally my latin knowledge can be useful. I'll get back to you with one

[Negarakita]

You can copy and paste the Arabic text from a Quran website like Quran411 then put it in google translate to Latin, and yes they do have Latin.

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

In nomine dei, maximissus compatiens et maximissus clementissimus
laus deo, dominus mundi omnium
Compatiens, clemens, dominus die rationis
tuum solum oramus, et tuo soli auxilium quaremus
derige nos ad iter rectum
iter eorum qui decum tuum adsumpserunt
ne iter eorum qui iram tuum volverunt neque eorum qui errant

This should be more or less right

[Jolthig]

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

In nomine dei, maximissus compatiens et maximissus clementissimus
laus deo, dominus mundi omnium
Compatiens, clemens, dominus die rationis
tuum solum oramus, et tuo soli auxilium quaremus
derige nos ad iter rectum
iter eorum qui decum tuum adsumpserunt
ne iter eorum qui iram tuum volverunt neque eorum qui errant

This should be more or less right

Interesting

[True Alimeria]

Well I did that before but I mean the translation is grammatically incorrect. I's just asking if there's some Latin speaker here who could translate
it correctly.

In nomine dei, maximissus compatiens et maximissus clementissimus
laus deo, dominus mundi omnium
Compatiens, clemens, dominus die rationis
tuum solum oramus, et tuo soli auxilium quaremus
derige nos ad iter rectum
iter eorum qui decum tuum adsumpserunt
ne iter eorum qui iram tuum volverunt neque eorum qui errant

This should be more or less right

Many Thanks To You!!

[Jolthig]

The next tasfir I'm reading is the classical Ibn Kathir; said to be the second best commentary in Sunni Islam.

[Jolthig]

And I am also studying the science of Hadith; starting with An Introduction To The Science of Hadith by Ibn al-Salah (since Hadith studies fascinate me).

[Alsheb]

Eid Mubarak everyone


Wa iyyaq ya akhi.


I disagree. Zaydis for example demand to remove an unjust leader. One could say that the actions of Hussayn ibn Ali for example also is a form of questioning authority, if not simply demanding its removal.

But then again there are teachers who don't like specific questions, usually because they do not know the answer and are too proud to admit that. I see it with colleagues and sometimes myself as well (middle school teacher in religion and philosophy here).


That's a gross generalization of Shias in general.

Zaydis are really a different topic as there has never really been a power Zaydi state or nation like the way more mainstream Jafari Shias have like the Safavids, Fatimids and others.

Err... There was a Zaydi Imamate in Yemen for over a thousand years, from 897 until 1970.

[Alsheb]

Please. Hussayn Ibn Ali was as far from a protest and questioning of authority as anything can be. It was just one pretender to the throne of the Caliphate challenging another. Hussayn was the pretender to Ali's throne and did not recognize Muawiyye's decision to let Yazid Success him. Whether or not his cause was just is another topic, but it was in no way a form of questioning authority in the form I am talking about.

I disagree honestly. But do clarify what you mean with questioning authority, because it's not clear for me.

And I'm not sure about Zaydis, since I'm not one, but I have been a shia for a long time and I can say that the Shia have the tendency to anti-republicanism and a view of "The Caliph is The Representative of God on Earth (Zallullah, meaning "Shadow of God") and therefore not questioned by anyone. Of course, that only worked for the ones they had given the title to but that's more of a hypocrisy thing than anything.

I mean Zaydis don't have a Caliph or some sorts nor the idea of imamate which is a sole Twelver thing as far as I know. The five imams for Zaydis aren't infallible and they're pretty close to Sunnism in that aspect.

Most Shiism being spoken here is almost exclusively Twelver Shi'ism. With a divine mandate so to speak, imamate and so forth.

Close, but Zaydis do actually believe in the Imamate. In fact there have almost continuously been Zaydi Imams at least until 1948, and in a more contested way until 1970.

[Alsheb]

That's why I am careful using the word Shia to refer to Twelver Shias. I mean commonly the word Shia is used for the Twelver Shias but it is dangerous at it refers to more than just the Twelvers.

Ismailis too, but it's pretty well established what it means when people say Shia or Shiite, Im not sure if this is true or not but I've heard some Zaydis dont even call themselves Shia and I have heard some Shias like Jafari Twelvers call themselves Sunni and claim Shias are real Sunnis, it's all really relative, but there's a pretty standaridzed well defined and understood definition.

One short description often used about us Zaydis, is that we are religiously Sunni but politically Shia.

[Alsheb]

I disagree honestly. But do clarify what you mean with questioning authority, because it's not clear for me.

First, allow me to clarify that when I say "Shia", I mean The Twelver Shia. The Sufis have yet to become relevant in political Islam (apart from fringe groups in Iran like the so-called Re-start) and the other forms of Political Shia are decidedly built on questioning authority (see: The the Hashshashin)

When I say Questioning Authority, I mean exactly that. Keeping the authority (The Imam, The Amir, The Ayatollah, and even Prophet and God themselves) in check, and calling them out for their bullshit. In Traditional Islam, The Jews (I mean the historical religious faction) are hated, particularly by the Shia, mostly because they had this tendency of calling YHWH out for his bullshit (they actually pride themselves on that, if the few Jews I've talked with are to be trusted, but don't quote me on that) . In Iran in particular "Irad-e-Bani-Esraeili" (ایراد بنی اسرائیلی) or 'Banu Israelite complaint' is used for repeated questions of an authority and informally means repeated complaints, and has long since been viewed as a negative trait in The Cutlural Shia.

In Historical Islam, Aisha was one of the few people in the Sadr-i-Islam period that questioned Muhammad everytime she thought he was wrong. And that is the primary reason why the Twelvers hate her, though, I have to admit her enmity with Ali is also an important factor, especially considering the Shia's rather cult of personality built around the Imams (the 14 children of the line of Fatima).

Have you been talking to actual Jews or just to "ethnically Jewish" people? Because I cannot for the life of me imagine an actual religious Jew "calling God out" for anything.

[Frievolk]

First, allow me to clarify that when I say "Shia", I mean The Twelver Shia. The Sufis have yet to become relevant in political Islam (apart from fringe groups in Iran like the so-called Re-start) and the other forms of Political Shia are decidedly built on questioning authority (see: The the Hashshashin)

When I say Questioning Authority, I mean exactly that. Keeping the authority (The Imam, The Amir, The Ayatollah, and even Prophet and God themselves) in check, and calling them out for their bullshit. In Traditional Islam, The Jews (I mean the historical religious faction) are hated, particularly by the Shia, mostly because they had this tendency of calling YHWH out for his bullshit (they actually pride themselves on that, if the few Jews I've talked with are to be trusted, but don't quote me on that) . In Iran in particular "Irad-e-Bani-Esraeili" (ایراد بنی اسرائیلی) or 'Banu Israelite complaint' is used for repeated questions of an authority and informally means repeated complaints, and has long since been viewed as a negative trait in The Cutlural Shia.

In Historical Islam, Aisha was one of the few people in the Sadr-i-Islam period that questioned Muhammad everytime she thought he was wrong. And that is the primary reason why the Twelvers hate her, though, I have to admit her enmity with Ali is also an important factor, especially considering the Shia's rather cult of personality built around the Imams (the 14 children of the line of Fatima).

Have you been talking to actual Jews or just to "ethnically Jewish" people? Because I cannot for the life of me imagine an actual religious Jew "calling God out" for anything.

Mostly religious. There aren't that many ethnic Jews in Iran that I know of, much less have the ability to converse with.

[Alsheb]

Have you been talking to actual Jews or just to "ethnically Jewish" people? Because I cannot for the life of me imagine an actual religious Jew "calling God out" for anything.

Mostly religious. There aren't that many ethnic Jews in Iran that I know of, much less have the ability to converse with.

And they claim to be proudly opposing God? For a religion so obsessed with "the Law", that seems very much unlikely.