The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Jolthig]

Coding problem fixed

[Aulus Maximus]

That mostly only happens when the post is too long. I think you're going to need to cut the post in half or something.

All I know is the post on my Google doc is 29 pages long

Ya illahi, this will give you lots of barakah.

[Jolthig]

All I know is the post on my Google doc is 29 pages long

Ya illahi, this will give you lots of barakah.

Yup

[Jolthig]

Had not my laptop been so slow and not corporative near the end of my post, it would've been posted by now

[True Alimeria]

[Negarakita]

That mostly only happens when the post is too long. I think you're going to need to cut the post in half or something.

All I know is the post on my Google doc is 29 pages long

How will this even work on the forum?
Surely just linking to the doc is easier?

[Jolthig]

All I know is the post on my Google doc is 29 pages long

How will this even work on the forum?
Surely just linking to the doc is easier?

I'm gonna cut it in half based on the points Cuprum made.

I'm gonna cut off my first post after point 6. Then make a second post for the other half.

Plus, it's in NationStates coding so it's gonna be posted in here

[Jolthig]

Since one of the translations mentioned and used by my opponent is Yusuf Ali, I will use his translation and his commentary this time to respond to his (really Answering Islam)’s allegations that the Qu’ran contradicts itself. I highly encourage my Muslim friends to save this in their Google docs for future debates. And because this half is still very long, my apologies for the bad coding. Fortunately, it's spoiled so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle.

Name one contradiction?

Source:http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ashraf.html

1. Embryonic Sex Determination

One of the references on human reproduction which Muslims often quote from the Quran is verse 53:45-46. This is interpreted as a reference to the determination of sex at the fertilization stage itself. However, elsewhere, the Quran says that the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage!



"That He did create the pairs - male and female from a sperm-drop* (nutfah) when lodged (in its place)" (53:45-46)


"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made the sexes, male and female" ** (75:38-39)

It’s 37-39. Not 38-39. I also, fail to see any contradiction between the two. They are two different ways of saying the same thing. There is no contradiction between the two. 53:45-46 is just a summary of 75:37-39. The only thing that’s emitted is


[quote=”Surah 75: Al-Qiyamah, Verse 38, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Then did he become

A clinging clot;

Then did (Allah) make

And fashion (him)

In due proportion[/quote]


The Qu’ran has a diverse way of explaining itself. If you still do not understand, then allow me to do some underlining for you:


[quote=”Surah 53: Al-Najm, Verses 45-46, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]45. That He did create

In pairs-male and female,


46. From a sperm drop when lodged

(In its place);[/quote]


[quote=”Surah 75: Al-Qiyamah, Verses 37-39, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]37. Was he not a drop

Of sperm emitted

(In lowly form)?


38. Then did he become

A clinging clot;

Then did (Allah) make

And fashion (him)

In due proportion.


39. And of it He made

Two sexes, male

And female.[/quote]

This is interpreted as a reference to the determination of sex at the fertilization stage itself. However, elsewhere, the Quran says that the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage!

It does not say the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage. The clot and sperm-drop are literally the same thing and saying according to the Qu’ran. It’s Allah’s diverse way of saying where males and females come from. [i\Not[/i] what sex is determined at a stage.

Note the conspicuous absence of ovum required for fertilization.

What conspiracy? There is no conspiracy. And it doesn’t deny ovum being involved. When sperm and ovum meet, the zygote develops into multiple cells. That’s clearly consistent with 75:38.

This view is further supported by this Hadith: "When 42 nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an Angel to it, who shapes it and make its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, "O Lord, is it male or female?" and your Lord decides what He wishes" (Hadith, Muslim, Book 33, No. 6392)

You did not provide the full hadith:


[quote=”Sahih Muslim, Book 33, #6392”]Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported directly from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that he said:

When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb for forty or fifty (days) or forty nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no addition to nor subtraction from it.[/quote]

This hadith really points the opposite of you intended this to be used for. It does not support your argument in anyway. The context of this hadith just doesn’t add up to your claims. This hadith is basically describing what gender a person would be and what deeds they will do in life. The angels record everything.


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]2. Width of the Garden

There is a clear discrepancy with reference to the width of the Paradise or Garden in the Quran. Verse 3:133 says that it is all the heavens (Samawath: plural) and the earth combined. Verse 57:21 says that the width is the (lower?) heaven (Sama: singular) and the earth combined.



".... a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous," (3:133)

".... a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah .... " (57:21)[/quote]

I’m gonna be very simple with this response for these verses: Just like with the embryology verses, these two verses from two different chapters are two ways of saying the same thing. Plus, it’s not even literal anyway. These verses are there because the Afterlife has many blessings in store for those who believe and do good according to the Qu’ran.



[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]3. Who misleads people? Satan or Allah?

According to verse 4:119-120, Satan (the rejected one) is the one who creates false desires and misleads people. Refer also 15:42. However, according to verse 16:93, it is God who leaves people astray as He wills! See also 4:78.[/quote]

That is not a contradiction. God has given us free will to make our own choices on whom we choose to follow. As a matter in fact, Yusuf Ali, in his footnote 1976 on Al-Hijr 15:41 (can also apply to 15:42 as well) references Ibrahim 14:22. He says that the blame is not even on Satan, but on the sinner himself for even following him. Let’s read the verse in its context shall we?


[quote=”Surah 14: Ibrahim, Verse 22, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]22. And Satan will say

When the matter is decided:

“It was Allah Who gave you

A promise of Truth: I too

Promised, but I failed

In my promise to you.

I had no authority over you

Except to call you, but ye

Listened to me: then

Reproach not me, but reproach

Your own souls. I cannot listen

To your cries, nor can ye

Listen to mine. I reject

Your former act in associating

Me with Allah.

For wrongdoers there must be

A Grievous Penalty.[/quote]


So now to the verses you provided:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nisa, Verses 119-120, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]I will mislead them,

And I will create

In them false desires; I will

Order them to slit the ears

Of cattle, and to deface

The (fair) nature created

By Allah. Whoever,

Forsaking Allah, takes Satan

For a friend, hath

Of a surety suffered

A loss that is manifest.[/quote]


[quote=”Surah 15: Al-Hijr, Verse 42, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]”For over My servants

No authority shalt thou

Have, except such as

Put themselves in the wrong

And follow thee.[/quote]


Notice how I provide the full verses in their contexts whereas you haven’t:

I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires....." (says Satan)

"Satan make them promises and creates in them false hopes...." (vouched by Allah) (4:119-120)

I provide the full verses in their context because when you quote only a part of the verses, it’s misleading. Always provide the verses in their context. That’s why your argument collapses because you’re not providing the verses in their full context. Also, remember the fact that Allah already said in Al-Hijr and Ibrahim, which were revealed in Mecca, that it is the people’s choice to follow Satan. The Medinan al-Nisa which you provide does not contradict these two chapters as I’ve explained. As you’ve admitted later in your post, the Qu’ran is not in the order of the time of the revelations. Now I’ll explain why Allah lets go astray whom he pleases.


[quote=””Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 93, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]If Allah so willed, He

Could make you all one People:

But He leaves straying Whom He pleases, and He guides

Whom He pleases: but ye

Shall certainly be called to account

For all your actions.[/quote]


This proves Allah gives free will to humanity.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nisa, Verse 78, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Wherever ye are,

Death will find you out,

Even if ye are in towers

Built up strong and high!”


If some good befalls them,

They say, “This is from Allah”;

But if evil, they say,

“This is from thee” (O Prophet).

Say: “All things are from Allah.”

But what hath come

To these people,

That they fail

To understand

A single fact?[/quote]


As we’ve already pointed out, Allah said in Surahs Ibrahim 14:22 and 15:42 that it is the people’s choice to be led astray by Satan. This part seems to be pointing out to such. Especially when going to verses 119-120 later on.



So again, when you said:


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]"If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people. But He leaves straying whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases ...." (16:93)[/quote]


As the later parts of this verse shows:


[quote=””Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 93, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]If Allah so willed, He

Could make you all one People:

But He leaves straying Whom He pleases, and He guides

Whom He pleases: but ye

Shall certainly be called to account

For all your actions.[/quote]

It is the people’s free will to follow whom they please.


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064”]4. Attitude towards unbelieving parents

Al-Quran givens contradicting information as to what a believer should do when unbelieving parents and brothers insist on worshipping their gods. Verse 31:15 asks believers to keep company with unbelieving parents even if they insist (on following their religion?), but verse 9:23 asks believers not to take their fathers and brothers as protectors if they disbelieved!



"But if they strive (Jahada) to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration)..." (31:15)

"O ye who believe! Take not protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above faith: If any of you do so, they do wrong" (9:23)



These verses of course appear in different contexts. Apologists can argue that verse 9:23 is applicable only in the context of hostilities and not otherwise. Then we have to define what is hostility. We must not forget that many passages in the Quran reflect an hostile environment of fluctuating fortunes between believers and unbelievers. Since neither the Suras nor all the verses within Suras are arranged chronologically, the contexts of these `revelations' become that much difficult to understand. Interestingly, verse 31:15 also seems to appear in the context of `Striving' from the Unbelievers' side. Note the word `Jahada'![/quote]

They’re really not that hard to understand when looking at them in their context. Again, as you’ve admitted, the Qu’ran isn’t arranged in the terms of when these Surahs were revealed. It’s arranged in accordance with how the themes of the Surahs. Do pay attention to how the Surahs are written and you will understand. That is why many commentators put so much emphasis on themes.


Besides the point, Surah al-Tawbah as you’ve mentioned in verse 23, is a Surah relating to war as the first and sixteenth sections show. So similarly, verse 23 must also fit into this context. Whereas Surah Luqman 31:15 is about a general relationship between a believer and unbeliever when war was not being made.


[quote=”Surah: Luqman, Verse 15, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]”But if they strive

To make thee join

In worship with Me

Things of which thou hast

No knowledge, obey them not;

Yet bear them company

In the End the return

Of you all is to Me,

And I will tell you

The truth (and meaning)

Of all that ye did.”[/quote]


Again, note that this is a Meccan revelation. The believers were not commanded to fight yet. Go to Surah Al-Hajj verses 39-40 which is one of the first Medinan revelations, it says:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Hajj, Verses 39-40, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]To those against whom

War is made, permission

Is given (to fight), because

They are wronged-and verily,

Allah is Most Powerful

For their aid-


(They are) those whom have

Been expelled from their homes

In defiance of right-

(For no cause) except

That they say, “Our Lord

Is Allah”. Had not Allah

Checked one set of people

By means of another

There would surely have been

Pulled down monasteries, churches,

Synagogues, and mosques, in which

The name of Allah is commemorated

In abundant measure. Allah will

Certainly aid those who

Aid His (cause)-for verily

Allah is Full of Strength,

Exalted in Might,

(Able to enforce His Will).[/quote]


Besides, this hadith seems to point out that you can still be at peace with your parents whenever there is a peace treaty:


[quote=”Sahih Bukhari Hadith #3183 (Sunnah.com)”]Narrated Asma 'bint Abi Bakr:

During the period of the peace treaty of Quraish with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), my mother, accompanied by her father, came to visit me, and she was a pagan. I consulted Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! My mother has come to me and she desires to receive a reward from me, shall I keep good relation with her?" He said, "Yes, keep good relation with her."[/quote]

So Surah Luqman 15:31 is still valid, and al-Nisa 9:23 does not abrogate it.


”Surah: al-Tawbah, Verses 23-24, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]O ye who believe! Take not

For protectors your fathers

And your brothers if they love

Infidelity above Faith:

If any of you do so,

They do wrong.


Say: If it be that your fathers,

Your sons, your brothers,

Your mates, or your kindred;

The wealth that ye have gained;

The commerce in which ye fear

A decline; or the dwellings

In which ye delight-

Are dearer to you than Allah,

Or His Messenger, or the striving

In His cause-then wait

Until Allah brings about

His Decision: and Allah

Guides not the rebellious.[/quote]


This means that this verse is referring to war. There was no peace treaty signed with those who were hostile to the Muslims at this time so when the parents were trying to suppress their Muslim children of their faith, they were not to be taken as protectors. So, remember in Luqman 31, when that similar situation arose, the Muslims were not commanded to fight until the revelation of Surah al-Hajj 39-40, or during the treaty of peace with the Quraish, the Muslims could have good relations with their parents who were also Quraish. This does not mean that Muslims should fight against parents that aren’t hostile to them because look to the verse above Luqman 31:15:


[quote=”Surah: Luqman, Verse 14, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]And We have enjoined on man

(To be good) to his parents:

In travail upon travail

Does his mother bear him,

And in years twain

Was his weaning: (hear

The command), “Show gratitude

To Me and they parents:

To Me is (thy final) Goal.[/quote]


So this applies to both Muslim and non-Muslim parents. So when 15 was revealed concerning those who sought to suppress their children’s Islamic beliefs, you are not to obey them and when Al-Tawbah 23-24 were revealed in the case of war, you are not to associate with them. It does not abrogate Luqman 31:14-15.


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064”]5. Which enters the Paradise: Soul or Body or Both?

After resurrection, it is the body (after reuniting with the soul?) which enters the Paradise. This has been emphasized throughout the Book. See verses 13:5, 17:98-99, 20:55, 34:7, 75:3-4. However verses 27-30 in Sura 89 state that it is the Soul (Nafs)* which enters the Garden!



"See they not that Allah who created the heavens and the earth has the power to create the like of them (anew)? ...." (17:99)

"Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay we are able to to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers..." (75:3-4)

(To the righteous soul will be said) "O (tho) soul, in (complete) rest and satisfaction! Come back thou to thy Lord - well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him! Enter thou, thee among my Devotees! Yea, enter thou My Heaven!" (89:27-30)



"Your creation and your rising (from the dead) are only as (the creation and the rising of) a single soul..." (31:28)



In Islam, the bliss in Paradise is not complete without the corporeal and sense pleasures. Otherwise, how can one drink Zanzabil (76:17), feel the moderate temperature (76:13), enjoy maidens (55:56) and drink honey and milk (47:16-17). These are all joys in state for the faithful.[/quote]


These things are metaphorical symbols for what’s in store for those who believe in the Hereafter. Since, we haven’t experienced the Hereafter yet, we can only know of how great it is from what we know of the Qu’ran. Besides look below on what I will provide from Yusuf Ali’s commentary as well as refuting your objections on it:


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]Yousuf Ali (note 6128 for verse 89:27-30) also says that it is the soul which enters the heaven, and not the gross body which perishes (His comment is contradictory to what verse 75:3-4 says!). Read verse 31:28 also. It says man's creation or resurrection is in no wise but as an individual soul*. Pickthall's translation (see box above) is more clear.[/quote]

He did not contradict himself on these verses. Here is what his footnotes on 75:3-4 say:

The Unbelievers' usual cry is: "What! When we are reduced to bones and dust, how can our personality be called to account?" (17:49). The answer is: Allah has said so, and He will do it; for death here is not the end of all things.

An idiom for the most delicate parts of the body.

Besides read his note on verse 2. He even referenced Al-Fajr 89:27-30 in what you’ve mentioned:

Our doctors postulate three stages of the development of the human soul; (1) Ammarah (12:53), which is prone to evil, and, if not checked and controlled, will lead to perdition; (2) Lawwamah, as here, which feels conscious of evil, and resists it, asks for Allah's grace and pardon after repentance and tries to amend; it hopes to reach salavation; (3) Mutma'innah (89:27) the highest stage of all, when it achieved full rest and satisfaction. Our second stage may be compared to Conscience, except that in English usage Conscience is a faculty and not a stage in spiritual development.

He further says on Al-Fajr 89:27:


[quote=”Yusuf Ali's footnote 6127 on Al-Fajr 89:27, pg. 1565"]The righteous enter into their inheritance and receive their welcome with a title that suggests freedom from all pain, sorrow, doubt, struggle, disappointment, passion, and even further desire: at rest, in peace; in a state of complete satisfaction.


In Muslim theology, this stage of the soul is the final stage of bliss. The unregenerate human soul, that seeks its satisfaction in the lower earthly desires, is the Ammarah (12:53). The self-reproaching soul that feels conscious of sin and resists it is the Lawwamah (75:2, and n. 5810).[/quote]


So Yusuf Ali's views on Surah 75:3-4 are that these things (the making of bones from the earth) are metaphorical. This is the view of my community as well. Very interesting.

So whoever wrote that article hardly read anything of Yusuf Ali. Smh. Therefore, it is the soul that enters Paradise in the form of a new body in the afterlife. Hence, these verses and commentary alone answers your objections here:

The Quran does not clearly recognize the SOUL as a distinct entity from the BODY. The soul is often referred as a source of all inclinations and desires (3:61, 12:53).

As I’ve already explained earlier, this is the first stage of a soul (Ammarah)as Yusuf Ali mentioned in his footnotes on 75:2 and 89:27. Further the verse goes on to state:


[quote=”Surah: Yusuf, Verse 53, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]”Nor do I absolve my own self

(Of blame): the (human) soul

Is certainly prone to evil,

Unless my Lord do bestow

His Mercy: but surely

My Lord is Oft-Forgiving,

Most Merciful.[/quote]


Remember what I said earlier: God guides whom he pleases and leaves astray whom he pleases. So the “Unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy” means that it takes us to the next stages of the soul: Lawwamah (75:2) and Mutma’innah (89:27).


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]The Arabic word `Nafs' has been translated differently by different translators: as SOUL, MIND, SPIRIT and even as HEART! The word `Nafs' at times refers to the individual (12:53), sometimes to the Soul (6:93, 39:42), and sometimes to God Himself (6:12,54)!.[/quote]

Whoever wrote that article on Answering Islam obviously does not understand or has even studied the Arabic language. Arabic is a very philosophical language. One word can have many meanings and therefore some of these words are often difficult to translate so sometimes the Arabic words are just left, but a footnote is left by the translator, explaining its different meanings. Also, the word can be translated differently depending on the context. Nafs is used twice in Yusuf 12:53 with two different meanings (soul and individual; as you’ve said in your post) used by the translator, but that doesn’t mean there’s a contradiction. Before jumping to conclusions that there is a contradiction in the translation of Yusuf 12:53, both Answering Islam and yourself should learn to study the Arabic language, or if you do know the Arabic language or at least enough to know the pronunciation and some major words, particles, and articles (like myself), pay attention to the way nafs is worded. For “indivdual”, nafs is worded, Nafsi, and for “the soul”, it’s worded Al-Nafs. Notice that the letter, hamzah precedes nafsi, and notice the several particles that also precede it. Ma’a and ba’a.


In this context, Ma’a can also mean both man and soul. That’s where we get Ammarah (soul prone to evil).


Then notice the particle, ba’a which is bari in this verse (which precedes the hemzah). ba’a is where “I” is translated from. So put that next to Nafsi, and you’ll know why the meaning of “Individual” or “Myself” is the translation of nafs.


Then for the other nafs, notice the particle al (the) which makes up, Al-Nafs (the soul). Then, put it next to the particle, Inna (surely), and Ammarah, and you get, Inna-naf-sala-amaarat “the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil”.


[quote=”Cuprum";p="33893064"]Of particular interest is verse 21:35 which says "Every soul shall have a taste of death.... ". This verse could mean: (i) that the Soul gets a taste of death after separation from the body, as Yousuf Ali interprets[/quote]

False. Here is what Yusuf Ali says in his commentary:


[quote=”Yusuf Ali's footnote 2697 on Al-Anbiya 21:35, pg. 802"]Cf. 3:185, and n. 491, and 29:57. The soul does not die, but when it separates from the body at the death of the body, the soul gets a taste of death. In our life of probation on this earth, our virtue and faith are tested by many things: some are tested by calamities, and some by the good things of this life. If we prove our true mettle, we pass our probation with success. In any case all must return to Allah, and then will our life be appraised of its true value.[/quote]


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=”33893064”]or (ii) that the Individual gets a taste of death as it is generally implied on most occasions (3:61, 51:21).[/quote]

And the context of those verses refer to people. Further, Yusuf Ali says in his footnote on Al-Dhariyat 51:21:


[quote=”Yusuf Ali's footnote 5002 on Al-Dhariyat 51:21, pg. 1358"]The Signs and Evidence of Allah are in all nature and within the body and soul of man, if man has but the spiritual eyes to see. Cf. 41:53.[/quote]


So again, no contradiction in the translations dude. You’re not even making any sense now. Or Answering Islam for that matter. If you’re gonna make claims about an Arabic word, then at least study the language before making a claim. Lane’s Lexicon is a great source to find info.


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=”33893064”]Those who are of the opinion that `Nafs' in 21:35 only mean the real Soul would then have to consider this verse as another contradiction to verses 39:42 and 89:27-30 which imply that the Soul is taken back by Allah, momentarily during sleep and decisively at death. Does it mean that the Soul has no death? (Aristotle)[/quote]

Again, no contradiction. Pay attention to the context of the way the Arabic is worded if you know the language. I have given you Yusuf Ali’s footnotes to answer your last question. Yes, the soul tastes of death in the sense that the physical body dies, but the soul itself is eternal.

[Jolthig]

[quote=”Cuprum”;p=”33893064”]6. God needs man or man needs God?

A very clear contradiction exists between verses 51:56 and 35:15. While the former verse says that God created Jinns and mankind for His own reasons (read also 67:2), the latter one says it is man who is in need of God! Read also 51:57.[/quote]

There is no contradiction between the two chapters and verses whatsoever.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Dhariyat, Verse 56, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]I have only created

Jinns and men, that

They may serve Me.[/quote]


Where exactly in this verse does it say that God needs man? It doesn’t say that anywhere in this verse whatsoever. It just says that God created men and Jinns that they may worship Him. That’s literally our purpose here in life.


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]]"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me" * (51:56)

"He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is the best in deed" (67:2)

"O mankind! It is you that have need of God: but God is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise" (35:15) [/quote]


Also, Al-Mulk 67:2 does not support your argument. I’ve noticed you occasionally have a tendency to use chapters and verses without knowing what they’re about. Let me enlighten you on this particular passage you shared:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Mulk, Verse 2, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]He Who created Death

And Life, that He

May try which of you

Is best in deed;

And He is the Exalted

In Might, Oft-Forgiving-[/quote]


The passage is pretty clear that we are made to pass through trials and tribulations to see if we can rely on God to rely on him or not.


Also, Fatir 35:15 does not contradict either Al-Dhariyat 51:56 nor Al-Mulk 67:2. If anything, it supports what I say for both 51:56 and 67:2:


[quote=”Surah: Fatir, Verse 15, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]O ye men! It is

Ye that have need

Of Allah: but Allah is

The One Free of all wants,

Worthy of all praise.[/quote]


Again, where does it say in 51:56 that Allah needs people to worship him? It doesn’t say that anywhere in that verse. It just states men and Jinn are created to worship Allah. Nor does 67:2 support your argument.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Dhariyat, Verse 56, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]I have only created

Jinns and men, that

They may serve Me.[/quote]



[quote=”Surah: Al-Mulk, Verse 2, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]He Who created Death

And Life, that He

May try which of you

Is best in deed;

And He is the Exalted

In Might, Oft-Forgiving-[/quote]



[quote=”Surah: Fatir, Verse 15, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]O ye men! It is

Ye that have need

Of Allah: but Allah is

The One Free of all wants,

Worthy of all praise.[/quote]


Key words of all three Surahs: “I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me” (51:56), “that He may try which of you is best in deed” (67:2), and “It is ye that have need of Allah”. These are not contradictions. The Qu’ran is literally saying the same thing in all three references you showed me.










[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]Of interest in this regard is the popular (but probably fabricated) Hadith: "I was a secret treasure, and I created the creatures in order that I might be known" (*, *)[/quote]


I am not sure which hadith that is since you did not provide the reference. Nevertheless, it does not contradict the verses you shown and that I’ve explained.


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]7. EVIL AND GOOD: Where do they come from?

While one verse says that both Evil and Good issue from Allah, the very next verse says only Good comes from Allah!



".... If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah....."* (4:78)



"Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself" (4:79) [/quote]


Again, provide the verses in their full context before making a claim. These verses were revealed concerning the hypocrites who did not want to participate in the battles of the time of Muhammad.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nisa, Verses 77-79, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]77. Hast thou not turned

Thy vision to those

Who were told to hold back

Their hands (from fight)

But establish regular prayers

And spend in regular Charity?

When (at length) the order

For fighting was issued to them,

Behold! a section of them

Feared men as-

Or even more than-

They should have feared Allah:

They said: “Our Lord!

Why hast Thou ordered us

To fight? Wouldst Thou not

Grant us respite

To our (natural) term,

Near (enough)?” Say: “Short

Is the enjoyment of this world:

The Hereafter is the best

For those who do right;

Never will ye be

Dealt with unjustly

In the very least!


78. “Wherever ye are,

Death will find you out,

Even if ye are in towers

Built up strong and high!”


If some good befalls them,

They say, “This is from Allah”;

But if evil, they say,

“This is from thee” (O Prophet).

Say: “All things are from Allah.”

But what hath come

To these people,

That they fail

To understand

A single fact?


79. Whatever good, (O man!)

Happens to thee, is from Allah;

But whatever evil happens

To thee, is from they (own) soul.

And We have sent thee

As a Messenger

To (instruct) mankind.

And enough is Allah

For a witness.[/quote]


It is clear that these three verses were revealed concerning those who were weak in faith and hypocritical that blamed Muhammad for all their misfortunes. Verses 78-79 do not contradict themselves.


Yusuf Ali says in his commentary on 4:78:


[quote=”Yusuf Ali's footnote 597 on Al-Nisa 4:78, pg. 209"]The Hypocrites were inconsistent, and in this reflect unregenerate mankind. If a disaster happens, due to their own folly, they blame somebody else; but if they are fortunate, they claim reflected credit by pretending that Heaven has favoured them because of their own superior merits. The modern critic discards even this pretence, eliminates Heaven altogether, and claims all credit direct to himself, unless he brings in blind chance, but that he does mostly to “explain” misfortune. If we look to the Ultimate Cause of all things, all things come from Allah. But if we look to the proximate cause of things, our own merit is so small, that we can hardly claim credit for good ourselves with any fairness. In Allah’s hand is all good: 3:26. On the other hand, the proximate cause of our evil is due to some wrong in our own inner selves; for never are we dealt with unjustly in the very least: 4:77.[/quote]


Since Yusuf Ali reference al-e-Imran 3:26, here’s what it says:


[quote=”Surah: Al-e-Imran, Verse 26, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Say: O Allah!

Lord of Power (and Rule),

Thou givest Power

To whom Thou pleasest,

And Thou strippest off Power

From whom Thou pleasest:

Thou enduest with honour

Whom Thou pleasest,

And Thou bringest low

Whom Thou pleasest:

In Thy hand is all Good

Verily, over all things

Thou hast power.[/quote]


Which reminds me of a verse I referenced to you earlier:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 93, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]If Allah so willed, He

Could make you all one People:

But He leaves straying Whom He pleases, and He guides

Whom He pleases: but ye

Shall certainly be called to account

For all your actions.[/quote]

It is the people’s free will to follow whom they please.



[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]Interestingly, the remainder of this verse goes like this: "But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact?" Can anyone understand what God says here? The fact that both Good and Evil are from Allah or only Good is from Allah?[/quote]

The fact that you fail to understand what God is saying in al-Nisa 77-79 is what is confusing you. God leaves astray and takes away power from whom He pleases and gives Power and guides those whom he pleases. It is the hypocrites own choice that they have the calamities falling upon them for their utter hypocrisy in their faith at the time.


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]8. Who has to be blamed for BELIEF AND DISBELIEF?



"It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe" (6:12)


"No soul can believe except by the will of Allah" (10:100)[/quote]

[quote=”Surah: Al-An’am, Verse 12, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Say: To whom belongeth

All that is in the heavens

And on the earth” Say:

“To Allah. He hath inscribed

For Himself (the rule of) Mercy.

That He will gather you

Together for the Day of Judgement,

There is no doubt whatever.

It is they who have lost

Their own souls, that will

Not believe.[/quote]


[quote=”Surah: Yunus, Verse 100, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]No soul can believe, except

By the Will of Allah,

And He will place Doubt

(Or obscurity) on those

Who will not understand.[/quote]


These verses are really not that hard to understand after reading 16:93 and 3:26:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 93, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]If Allah so willed, He

Could make you all one People:

But He leaves straying Whom He pleases, and He guides

Whom He pleases: but ye

Shall certainly be called to account

For all your actions.[/quote]


[quote=”Surah: Al-e-Imran, Verse 26, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Say: O Allah!

Lord of Power (and Rule),

Thou givest Power

To whom Thou pleasest,

And Thou strippest off Power

From whom Thou pleasest:

Thou enduest with honour

Whom Thou pleasest,

And Thou bringest low

Whom Thou pleasest:

In Thy hand is all Good

Verily, over all things

Thou hast power.[/quote]


God causing those to be lead astray means that it is really man’s own choice that they chose their own path in the verses I showed you. Remember, God leads whom he pleases and leaves astray whom he pleases.




[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]9. Who has to be blamed for the wrongs done?



From verses 35:8, 16:93, 74:31, 2:142, we learn that it is Allah who has to be blamed for all the misguidance. While other verses hold man himself responsible for the wrongs done (30:9, 4:79).



"Allah leaves stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills" (35:8)



"It was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls" (30:9) [/quote]

And that’s where your argument again collapses because every verse you showed me of Allah supposedly being responsible for misguidance really says: “God leaves astray whom he pleases”.


Your argument further collapses below in the verses you referenced, and which I placed them in their full context:


[quote=”Surah: Fatir, Verse 8, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Is he, then, to whom

The evil of his conduct

Is made alluring, so

That he looks upon it

As good, (equal to one

Who is rightly guided)?

For Allah leaves to stray

Whom He wills, and guides

Whom He wills. So

Let not thy soul go out

In (vainly) sighing after them:

For Allah knows well

All that they do![/quote]


This verse is basically saying that it is because of man’s own choice to sin that he leaves them straying.


On 16:93:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 93, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]If Allah so willed, He

Could make you all one People: But He leaves straying

Whom He pleases, and He guides

Whom He pleases: but ye

Shall certainly be called to account

For all your actions.[/quote]


Again, man’s own choices in life that Allah leaves them straying.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Muddaththir, Verse 31, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]And We have set none

But angels as guardians

Of the Fire; and We

Have fixed their number

Only as a trial

For Unbelievers-in order

That the People of the Book

May arrive at certainty,

And the Believers may increase

In Faith-and that no doubts

May be left for the People

Of the Book and the Believers,

And that those in whose hearts

Is a disease and the Unbelievers

May say, “What symbol

Doth Allah intend by this?”

Thus doth Allah leave to stray

Whom He pleaseth, and guide

Whom He pleaseth; and none

Can know the forces

Of thy Lord, except He.

And this is no other than

A warning to mankind.[/quote]


Once again, man’s own choice to be lead astray, thus the Lord Allah leaves straying whom he pleases.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Baqarah, Verse 142, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]The Fools among the people

Will say: “What hath turned

Them from the Qiblah to which

They were used?” Say:

“To Allah belong East and West:

He guideth whom He will

To a Way that is straight.[/quote]


“Allah guides whom he wills to the right path, and leaves straying whom he wills.” all because of their own choices as the first part of this verse shows.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Rum, Verse 9, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Do they not travel

Through the earth, and see

What was the End

Of those before them?

They were superior to them

In strength: they tilled

The soil and populated it

In greater numbers than these

Have done: there came to them

Their messengers with Clear (Signs).

(Which they rejected, to their

Own destruction): it was not

Allah who wronged them, but

They wronged their own souls.[/quote]


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nisa, Verse 79, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]79. Whatever good, (O man!)

Happens to thee, is from Allah;

But whatever evil happens

To thee, is from they (own) soul.

And We have sent thee

As a Messenger

To (instruct) mankind.

And enough is Allah

For a witness.[/quote]


You’re right that it’s the people’s choice to remain rebellious. Similarly, it is the same thing in the other verses as I’ve underlined.



[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]10. UNBELIEVERS: To be persecuted or forgiven?

Verses 23:117 and 98:6 say that unbelievers will not prosper and are the worst of creatures!. Verse 9:29 also asks believers to fight those who do not believe in Allah, the Last Day, His rules and His religion of truth. But verse 45:14 says otherwise. Read also 16:128.



"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth ....." (9:29)



"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; It is for Him to recompense (for good or evil) each people according to what they have earned" (45:14)

Apologists can argue that verse 9:29 was revealed in the context of war and 45:14 perhaps towards the end of hostilities. The fact is that the Quran does not specify what verses are applicable in the context of war and what is to be followed during other occasions. And also what rulings were for the past, what are for the present and what are for the future! God has unfortunately left everything to our discretion. Ironically, Apologists claim that the Quran contains solutions for the problems of the Past, Present and Future. There is little doubt that their claims is more emotional than factual.[/quote]

These claims are simply not true. Again, as I’ve said I’ve said earlier and repetitively in this post, pay attention to the way the Surahs are worded and you will know the difference between a Meccan revelation (not containing anything war related) and Medinan revelations (contains war related things). This is how scholars judge the Surahs. Plus, we have witness of Ibn Abbas and several other scholars both early and modern on how and where these surahs were revealed. It is irresponsible on your part to make a claim and make that claim your conclusion that supposedly these Surahs contradict one another. If you simply just studied the Qu’ran you would understand where scholars and apologists are coming from. It is, simply, not that hard to know the context of the verses. And how are our claims emotional than factual? That’s not an argument in anyway against our claims. If anything, it is those who oppose Islam that have emotional arguments. I think many of my fellow Muslims can testify to this fact. I, for sure, can.


Yes, al-Taubah 29 was revealed in the context of a war, and the Qu’ran does specify the context as I’ve said earlier regarding the first (9:1-6) and sixteenth (9:123-129) sections.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Tawbah, Verse 29, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Fight those who believe not

In Allah nor the Last Day,

Nor hold that forbidden

Which hath been forbidden

By Allah and His Messenger,

Nor acknowledge the Religion

Of Truth, from among

The People of the Book,

Until they pay the Jizyah

With willing submission,

And feel themselves subdued.[/quote]


Since war with the Byzantines was very close, it was necessary that this verse was revealed. Up to a decade later, the Byzantines were defeated and their land was taken by the Muslims. Yet, none of them were forced to convert to Islam. Further, the Jizya reference debunks your claim that Muslims are supposed to fight unbelievers till they die or embrace Islam. This hadith further supports my argument on why the verse does not command Muslims to fight unbelievers until they are slain or embrace Islam:


[quote=”Sahih Bukhari, Hadith #3052 (Sunnah.com)]Narrated ‘Amr bin Maimun:


‘Umar (after he was stabbed), instructed (his would-be-successor) saying, “I urge him (i.e. the new Caliph) to take care of those non-Muslims who are under the protection of Allah and His Apostle in that he should observe the convention agreed upon with them, and fight on their behalf (to secure their safety) and he should not over-tax them beyond their capacity.”[/quote]


This goes to show, Cuprum, that non-Muslims were not to be killed just because they weren’t Muslims in Al-Tawbah 9:29. It’s just specifying what group of people the Believers are going to fight against in the coming years. The verse does not in anyway, say that Unbelievers are to be put to death for not believing. They are to be fought until they pay Jizya in exchange for protection from the Muslim state as mentioned in Sahih Bukhari #3052. So therefore, this verse also does not contradict Al-Jathiyah 45:14 nor 16:128.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Jathiyah, Verse 14, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Tell those who believe,

To forgive those who

Do not look forward

To the Days of Allah:

It is for Him to recompense

(For good or ill) each People

According to what

They have earned.[/quote]


All this verse says is to forgive those who do not believe (especially of those who scoff). I don’t think al-Tawbah 9:29, in anyway contradicts that. Especially since it’s only until they pay Jizya and that tax isn’t even burdensome according to Sahih Bukhari #3052. Moving on to al-Nahl 16:128:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nahl, Verse 128, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]For Allah is with those

Who restrain themselves,

And those who do good.[/quote]

Again, Surah 16 is a Meccan revelation before the commandments of Surah 22 came. So therefore this applies to personal grudges and acting on anger against those who try to anger you. Plus, it still applies to today.


Now, I’ll repeat what I’ve posted earlier of Surah al-Hajj so you remember and don’t twist my arguments (either way this is my first and last response to you):




[quote=”Surah: Al-Hajj, Verses 39-40, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]To those against whom

War is made, permission

Is given (to fight), because

They are wronged-and verily,

Allah is Most Powerful

For their aid-


(They are) those whom have

Been expelled from their homes

In defiance of right-

(For no cause) except

That they say, “Our Lord

Is Allah”. Had not Allah

Checked one set of people

By means of another

There would surely have been

Pulled down monasteries, churches,

Synagogues, and mosques, in which

The name of Allah is commemorated

In abundant measure. Allah will

Certainly aid those who

Aid His (cause)-for verily

Allah is Full of Strength,

Exalted in Might,

(Able to enforce His Will).[/quote]


Hence, the latter part is also consistent with Sahih Bukhari #3052 as well.






[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]11. God's advice to Muhammed on propagating Islam



We have seen apologists quoting verses from the Quran in support of their claim that the Quran does not recommend forceful conversions. The verse they often quote is 2:256 which says "There is no compulsion in religion". There are also many verses in the Quran which suggest otherwise and these have already appeared on web pages. Here we see two contradicting directives from God on conveying Allah's religion to the people:



"So if they dispute thee, say: "I have permitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me"..... "Do you (also) submit yourselves? If they do, they are in right guidance. But if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the message. And in Allah's sight are (all) His servants" (3:20)



"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from disbelief), their past would be forgiven; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning to them). And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah's in its entirety... " (8:38-39)



Is verse 8:38-39 an abrogation of verse 3:20?[/quote]

No. Let’s do my usual comparison of verses shall we? I know, I show so much, but I do this so you can understand where I am coming from, if you’re not closed-minded:


[quote=”Surah: Al-e-Imran, Verses 20, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]So if they dispute with thee,

Say: “I have submitted

My whole self to Allah

And so have those

Who follow me.”

And say to the People of the Book

And to those who are unlearned:

“Do ye (also) submit yourselves?”

If they do, they are in right guidance,

But if they turn back,

Thy duty is to convey the Message;

And in Allah’s sight

Are (all) His servants.[/quote]


Seems to me that this verse was revealed, not mentioning any fighting with those who don’t believe in this verse. Especially since it is a Medinan revelation (after Muhammad moved from Mecca). We already had the revelation of Surah Al-Hajj 22:39-40, commanding believers to fight in defense of their faith, and this was revealed while Muhammad was on his way to Medina. So therefore, since this verse was revealed after, obviously, the people mentioned in here didn’t raise the sword against the Muslims, but simply they wanted to argue with Muslims, but without fighting. That’s why it says “If they dispute with thee”, meaning just arguing. No swords clashing. Now, addressing, Al-Anfal:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Anfal, Verses 38-39, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Say to the Unbelievers,

If (now) they desist (from Unbelief),

Their past would be forgiven them;

But if they persist, the punishment

Of those before them is already

(A matter of warning for them).


And fight them on

Until there is no more

Tumult or oppression,

And there prevails

Justice and faith in Allah

Altogether and everywhere;

But if they cease, verily Allah

Doth see all that the do.[/quote]


Verse 38 refers to divine punishment in this life and the hereafter, but for verse 39, notice the underlined portion. How can you miss the “Until there is no more tumult or oppression” and the “But if they cease” parts?


Further Yusuf Ali says in his commentary:


[quote=”Yusuf Ali's footnote 1208 on Al-Anfal 8:39, pg. 423"]If they cease from fighting and from the persecution of truth, Allah judges them by their actions and their motives, and would not wish that they should be harassed with further hostility. But if they refuse all terms, the righteous have nothing to fear: Allah will help and protect them.[/quote]


So basically, once the disbelievers cease fighting, Muslims too must cease. This is further supported by al-Tawbah 9:4, which further debunks your argument:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Tawbah, Verses 4, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”](But the treaties are) not dissolved

With those Pagans with whom

Ye have entered into alliance

And wh have not subsequently

Failed you in aught,

Nor aided anyone against you.

So fulfil your engagements

With them to the end

Of their term: for Allah

Loveth the righteous.[/quote]

Hence, non-combatants cannot be fought against. So what I said answers your questions below:


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”]If that is the case, can we recommend the directives in verse 8:38-39 as the standard method to be followed by all Muslims? Or is the latter verse given during the context of war?[/quote]


[quote=”Cuprum”;p=33893064”] To me, these verses reflect the changing moods of the prophet in response to the public reaction he received. We see a content & tolerant messenger in verse 3:20 and a contempt and aggressive messenger in verse 8:38-39![/quote]

The latter verses and al-Tawbah 9:4 have refuted your claim that Allah’s Messenger always changed his mind. You have no real argument against Islam. Besides, Muhammad never spoke on his own desire, and I’ve said this to many opponents so I will say these verses to you as well:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Najm, Verses 1-4, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]1. By the Star

When it goes down-


2. Your Companion is neither

Astray nor being misled,


3. Nor does he say (aught)

Of (his own) Desire.[/quote]


Now moving on to your next allegations against the Qu’ran. My response to this one will be very simple:

Oh boy. This is gonna be a huge debate now. I will respond to every point you made.

And the most Mythical one....What were humans created from?

Water:

"Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things," (Qur'an 24:45).

"And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful," (Qur'an 25:54).

A clot:

"Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth, Createth man from a clot," (Qur'an 96:1-2).

Clay/mud:

"He it is Who hath created you from clay, and hath decreed a term for you. A term is fixed with Him. Yet still ye doubt!" (Qur'an 6:2).

"Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered," (Qur'an 15:26).

"And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered," (Qur'an 15:28).

"He [Iblis] said: I am not one to prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter's clay of black mud altered!," (Qur'an 15:33).

"Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;" (Qur'an 32:7).

"When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire, And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate," (Qur'an 38:71-72).

"He created man of clay like the potter's," (Qur'an 55:14).

Dust:

"Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (This is) the truth from thy Lord (O Muhammad), so be not thou of those who waver," (Qur'an 3:59-60).

"And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!" (Qur'an 30:20).

"Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book, Lo! that is easy for Allah," (Qur'an 35:11).

Fluid (often interpreted as semen):

"He hath created man from a drop of fluid, yet behold! he is an open opponent," (Qur'an 16:4).

"Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay; Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;" (Qur'an 32:7-8).

"Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book, Lo! that is easy for Allah," (Qur'an 35:11).

Nothing:

"Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?" (Qur'an 19:67).

I believe you are quite confused in your arguments. All these elements- clay, dust, seminal fluid, and water are all elements. Not a single instance do these verse contradict one another. All God is mentioning is the elements of how he created men. Plus, dust/clay is also metaphor for humility so humans were created to be humble servants of God.


So, in conclusion, the Qu’ran most certainly is a divine book, and there is not a single instance of a contradiction in either of its verses. As the Qu’ran repetitively says, it is from an all-knowing God, and we see evidence of this in all of the verses and in my arguments, refuting my opponent. There is also no evidence whatsoever that the Qu’ran was made up by men as my opponent asserts:

The Quran was written by humans, no god would ever write the flaws and contradictions the Quran has...

If that were so, we would see different writing styles in each chapter. All writing styles of each chapter is the same. The conclusion is One Being wrote these verses, and not a bunch of humans. Besides the Qu’ran itself says:


[quote=”Surah: Al-Nisa, Verse 82, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]Do they not consider

The Qu’ran (with care)?

Had it been from other

Than Allah, they would surely

Have found therein

Much discrepancy.[/quote]


This is clear proof that the Qu’ran is in fact the Word of God. If a forger(s) of lies wrote the Qu’ran, they would never have written this verse down, and it would be pointless for them to write it down since they know in their hearts what they’re doing is wrong. The fact that the Qu’ran says that if it were written down by anyone than Allah Himself, in itself (alongside Al-Najm 53:1-3) refutes Cuprum’s claims that the Qu’ran isn’t the Word of God. Further, these verses are supported by the fact that the Qu’ran explains itself and supports itself quite well as I’ve shown in my rebuttal to my opponent. Hence this debunks another false claim by Cuprum regarding his allegations against the Qu’ran:

Fixed, the controversy is still exposed even if the apolegetic can come with a serious refutal.

Nothing of what you have said in your post has been exposed. On the contrary, Cuprum, it is your copy-paste arguments that have been exposed and the fact that these arguments fail to line up with what the Qu’ran is actually saying. This is a reason why this is my first and last response to you.


Other reasons for why I will no longer debate you is that:


1. Your lack of knowledge of the Qu’ran as demonstrated in your posts.

2. Your lack of knowledge of the Arabic language when you tried accusing Yusuf Ali of contradicting himself on the translation of the Arabic word, nafs into soul/self.

3.Your arguments are only copy-paste (even your Ahmadiyya allegations which you clearly got from an anti-ahmadi website since now you’re sounding like a non-Ahmadi Muslim extremist in that copy paste; I will not respond to that since I’ve already took three days to respond to the allegations here, and the fact that you again, copy pasted).

4.Your hypocrisy in saying that our arguments are nonsense, yet your posts seem to be more non-sense than what we have. Especially when compared with this reply.

5.The fact that you’re only here to argue and not learn anything about Islam.

6.The fact that you rely on anti-Islamic websites for your information rather than taking your time to read the Qu’ran with an open mind and commentaries.


Hence, this is my last post to you, and I will no longer reply to you after this. I bid you peace, and have wonderful day.


[quote=”Surah: Al-Furqan, Verse 63, The Meaning of the Holy Qu’ran, Abdullah Yusuf Ali”]And the servants of (Allah)

Most Gracious are those

Who walk on the earth

In humility, and when the ignorant

Address them, they say,

“Peace!”;[/quote]

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

[Jolthig]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

Hopefully the coding is not too bad. At least I hope you guys know who's talking haha

I have made a Factbook about NSers raising allegations against Islam, the Quran, Muhammad (saw), etc. Refuted. This is intended to help those who are arguing against one who opposes Islam and not willing to listen. It will be in my links sig.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

viewtopic.php?p=33909343#p33909343
Just this one post is 4,344 words.



viewtopic.php?p=33909345#p33909345
And that is 5,497 words.

Total of 9,841 words.

[Geneviev]

Goodness, I just read Part 1 and now will have to return to my good friend Google to understand completely. That is very long.

Jolthig, you have done well.

[Aulus Maximus]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

Other than this - it should also be used as the last, and really the last, punishment.

[Jolthig]

He responded to me in a telegram since I directly sent it to him. Just like what I predicted, he would argue in circles and called my arguments "apologetic rubbish" and he accused me of contradicting myself which he did not provide evidence for.

Debating with him is fruitless and it proves all my six points for why I refuse to debate him correct. His continuous false claims and circular arguments pretty much why he is only here to argue, and not learn.

Cuprum has no real argument. And his circular argument was that the Quran was copied from the Talmud and the Avesta and pagan scriptures, and then made an attack me because I'm Ahmadi and therefore I'm not muslim lol.

Just like what I predicted yesterday: whenever arguments like like his get exposed, they resort to arguing in circles.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I'm Ahmadi and therefore I'm not muslim lol.

I don't like making takfir, and yeah, he/she was wrong to do that (they aren't even Muslim, what right do they have to do so if even Muslims are barely allowed to do so???). But Ahmadis do have some beliefs that don't line up with the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Then again, all denominations have something like that.

[Jolthig]

I'm Ahmadi and therefore I'm not muslim lol.

I don't like making takfir, and yeah, he/she was wrong to do that (they aren't even Muslim, what right do they have to do so if even Muslims are barely allowed to do so???).

It is because they have no real argument.

But Ahmadis do have some beliefs that don't line up with the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Then again, all denominations have something like that.

I respectfully disagree and yeah

[Hindia Belanda]

As salam aleikum y'all.

Just popping in to say a quick hi in the new thread (lmao the title is brilliant, which one of you came up with this one?)

[Geneviev]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

I don't understand how any corporal punishment is allowed.

And Jolthig did very well. I will start Part 2 now.

[Jolthig]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

I don't understand how any corporal punishment is allowed.

And Jolthig did very well. I will start Part 2 now.

Later tonight, after work, I will explain the verse.

And thanks!

[Valgora]

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

Talks about using corporal punishment on a dude's wife
Is somehow not supposed to hurt her - despite the fact that it's corporal punishment
"Corporal punishment or physical punishment is a punishment intended to cause physical pain on a person."

A man "punishing" his wife through corporal punishment is domestic abuse.
If Islam allows a man to do that to his wife - then it is allowing domestic violence.

[Geneviev]

I don't understand how any corporal punishment is allowed.

And Jolthig did very well. I will start Part 2 now.

Later tonight, after work, I will explain the verse.

And thanks!

Cool.

I finished Part 2 and am amazed in many ways.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

As salam aleikum y'all.

Just popping in to say a quick hi in the new thread (lmao the title is brilliant, which one of you came up with this one?)

Wa'Alaikum Assalam
The credit goes to Jothig

Geneviev, when the husband is using corporal punishment on his wife, he should not hurt her as that would be wrong and against what Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) taught: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/628
So domestic violence is prohibited in Al-Islam.
Also, bet! Jolthig's done with his rebuttal! Imma read this insha-Allah.

Talks about using corporal punishment on a dude's wife
Is somehow not supposed to hurt her - despite the fact that it's corporal punishment
"Corporal punishment or physical punishment is a punishment intended to cause physical pain on a person."

A man "punishing" his wife through corporal punishment is domestic abuse.
If Islam allows a man to do that to his wife - then it is allowing domestic violence.

Then I guess it's not corporal punishment nor domestic abuse since it's not supposed to cause pain

[Valgora]

As salam aleikum y'all.

Just popping in to say a quick hi in the new thread (lmao the title is brilliant, which one of you came up with this one?)

Wa'Alaikum Assalam
The credit goes to Jothig

Talks about using corporal punishment on a dude's wife
Is somehow not supposed to hurt her - despite the fact that it's corporal punishment
"Corporal punishment or physical punishment is a punishment intended to cause physical pain on a person."

A man "punishing" his wife through corporal punishment is domestic abuse.
If Islam allows a man to do that to his wife - then it is allowing domestic violence.

Then I guess it's not corporal punishment nor domestic abuse since it's not supposed to cause pain

It's not corporal punishment; however, I don't think men should "punish" their wives.
Also, domestic abuse ain't just physical.

Does Islam allow men to "punish" their wives?
I don't actually know. If I remember correctly, men can have multiple wives but there are certain restriction on whether or not the man is allowed to have more than one. But I don't know what Islam says about "punishment" of the wife.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Wa'Alaikum Assalam
The credit goes to Jothig

Then I guess it's not corporal punishment nor domestic abuse since it's not supposed to cause pain

Also, domestic abuse ain't just physical.

Ik

Does Islam allow men to "punish" their wives?

Idk what you mean

I don't actually know. If I remember correctly, men can have multiple wives but there are certain restriction on whether or not the man is allowed to have more than one.

Correct. We have to treat all women equally.