The Benefit of Slavery

[Imperial Esplanade]

Honestly, the number of times you keep going back to the idea of them "sitting around and doing nothing" makes me think otherwise.

You're also under the presumption that said work must come at a net-cost to the taxpayer. Should said prisoner work, contributing himself to the greater economy, he is producing either a product or a service.

If enough prisoners work efficiently, the costs of payments and stock required for them to make said product or services will eventually be outweighed by the profits. Do I really need to explain basic economics?

The idea is to have somewhere to put prisoners without paying (much) for them. In order to do that, the prisoners would have to work because companies would need an incentive to keep them. That incentive would be cheap or free labor. As a result, the companies get a profit, and taxes get put to something else.

Your regurgitating of your idea does not, in any way, shape, or form, negate anything I just said.

[Saiwania]

The homeless would probably benefit from slavery, if they have a good master. They get more food and housing, etc. than they would on the street, but in exchange- they're expected to do as they're told.

[Arlenton]

I'm like 99.99% certain Parkus is dead-serious about this, but I do not know them enough to make that a 100% certainty.

It's always that .01% that ends up killing you.

Why do I keep forgetting to watch this movie? lmfao

[The Parkus Empire]

If you can put people to death? Yeah. Slavery is just stigmatized because of what we did with it before

Clearly not stigmatized enough, judging by the lunacy you're advocating...

Really Parkus, I expect periodical outbursts of silliness, but this.. This is just silly.

There is really nothing silly about work as punishment

[Imperial Esplanade]

I'm like 99.99% certain Parkus is dead-serious about this, but I do not know them enough to make that a 100% certainty.

It's always that .01% that ends up killing you.

Death by Brain-Aids.

[The Parkus Empire]

The homeless would probably benefit from slavery, if they have a good master. They get more food and housing, etc. than they would on the street, but in exchange- they're expected to do as they're told.

Having been homeless I would prefer that to slavery, unless all my family were slaves as well. Being seperated from those I love is very painful for me.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I won't lie, this thread's entirely lost me.

I got a distinct impression that the OP was at least 50% tongue-in-cheek, and being used as a sort of 'this is the sort of shit Living Document will get you, so back off on it' thing. Parkus doesn't seem like the sort to be in favour of even technically legal slavery, so I was fairly comfortable in this assumption.

So, was I just making an ass of you and me by assuming, or to put it another way is this a serious and legit thing people are suggesting?

Wait, how does the living document doctrine facilitate this?

[Albrenia]

Clearly not stigmatized enough, judging by the lunacy you're advocating...

Really Parkus, I expect periodical outbursts of silliness, but this.. This is just silly.

There is really nothing silly about work as punishment

Wouldn't that more be along the lines of 'community service', if the work itself was the punishment? You go to a certain number of hours or days of work, instead of being imprisoned?

[Arlenton]

The idea is to have somewhere to put prisoners without paying (much) for them. In order to do that, the prisoners would have to work because companies would need an incentive to keep them. That incentive would be cheap or free labor. As a result, the companies get a profit, and taxes get put to something else.

Your regurgitating of your idea does not, in any way, shape, or form, negate anything I just said.

You seem to think I'm concerned what the prisoners are doing. I am not, as long as they aren't being abused (to a degree I guess), aren't in the public, and aren't soaking up (too much) tax money, I have zero concern. I can't think of anything other than privatizing and convict leasing that would take care of all three of these issues.

[Imperial Esplanade]

Your regurgitating of your idea does not, in any way, shape, or form, negate anything I just said.

You seem to think I'm concerned what the prisoners are doing. I am not, as long as they aren't being abused (to a degree I guess), aren't in the public, and aren't soaking up (too much) tax money, I have zero concern. I can't think of anything other than privatizing and convict leasing that would take care of all three of these issues.

Then why keep bringing up the fact that they are "sitting around" in a prison cell?

[Mike the Progressive]

It's always that .01% that ends up killing you.

Why do I keep forgetting to watch this movie? lmfao

Because you're a terrorist and you hate freedom. Isn't that right, Arlenton? Or should I said Arlenton... bin Laden? *cue fajr prayer like music*

[Mike the Progressive]

It's always that .01% that ends up killing you.

Death by Brain-Aids.

I paid way less than $4

[Arlenton]

You seem to think I'm concerned what the prisoners are doing. I am not, as long as they aren't being abused (to a degree I guess), aren't in the public, and aren't soaking up (too much) tax money, I have zero concern. I can't think of anything other than privatizing and convict leasing that would take care of all three of these issues.

Then why keep bringing up the fact that they are "sitting around" in a prison cell?

You say it's "bad" to have them work because they won't like it. Isn't it "bad" to just lock them in a cell, which they don't like either?

[Arlenton]

Why do I keep forgetting to watch this movie? lmfao

Because you're a terrorist and you hate freedom. Isn't that right, Arlenton? Or should I said Arlenton... bin Laden? *cue fajr prayer like music*

Shit

[The Parkus Empire]

I won't lie, this thread's entirely lost me.

I got a distinct impression that the OP was at least 50% tongue-in-cheek, and being used as a sort of 'this is the sort of shit Living Document will get you, so back off on it' thing. Parkus doesn't seem like the sort to be in favour of even technically legal slavery, so I was fairly comfortable in this assumption.

So, was I just making an ass of you and me by assuming, or to put it another way is this a serious and legit thing people are suggesting?

Insofar as slavery goes as defined by Blackstone, I don't support it under any circumstances. It is something we managed to begin to get rid of with the Fall of Rome and almost completely abolished it before colonialism reignited it.

[The Parkus Empire]

There is really nothing silly about work as punishment

Wouldn't that more be along the lines of 'community service', if the work itself was the punishment? You go to a certain number of hours or days of work, instead of being imprisoned?

Functionally. Really the major difference crops up when someone is doing life.

[Albrenia]

I won't lie, this thread's entirely lost me.

I got a distinct impression that the OP was at least 50% tongue-in-cheek, and being used as a sort of 'this is the sort of shit Living Document will get you, so back off on it' thing. Parkus doesn't seem like the sort to be in favour of even technically legal slavery, so I was fairly comfortable in this assumption.

So, was I just making an ass of you and me by assuming, or to put it another way is this a serious and legit thing people are suggesting?

Insofar as slavery goes as defined by Blackstone, I don't support it under any circumstances. It is something we managed to begin to get rid of with the Fall of Rome and almost completely abolished it before colonialism reignited it.

Probably a poor choice of wording to describe work as punishment as 'slavery' when we have similar programs already which don't involve the literal ownership of people.

[Cedoria]

Good lord, Park. What did they put in whatever flavor of Kool-aid they gave you when you converted?

1. Doesn't change the fact that its still revenge.

2. How can you call it justice if there's no meaningful change of heart on the part of the offender?

3. Rehabilitation is the active ingredient, not the side effect.

4. That's because there *IS* a state of innocence prior to committing an offense.

5. A state which cannot truly be restored under the conditions you seek to impose.

6. Ah, hello Social Darwinism. When do I get to meet your brother, Eugenics?

7. Sure. And the only way to do that is to convince the offender they have done wrong, but they can also do better. Enslavement does the exact opposite of that.

8. Simple question. Assuming you've been falsely convicted of a crime (or even convicted of breaking an oppressive law), would YOU want to go through the process of """""justice""""" you prescribe?

A change of heart is not required by justice. Justice is coercive, you can't coerce a change of heart.

My views are derived from political theorists, not Orthodox saints. Christianity is about mercy and forgiveness. Christ rather says show mercy, not justice, because you want to be subject to mercy rather than justice from God. The state has authority and duty to punish, but I don't as an individual. If I punish, so God would punish me

They are innocent before the law prior to conviction, but rehabilitation is not about restoration of innocence before the law, they were already found guilty. It's ostensibly about restoring a state of normalcy.

I would be innocent of the crime in question, as always must be the case with some. Were I convicted anyway, I would accept it as a sort of punishment for my other transgressions

1: Can't coerce a change of heart? Of course you can, what nonsense.

2: You can preach mercy and forgiveness or you can advocate slavery. Pick one. But don't give me this whole 'I am so morally superior' tosh. What do you think the state is made up of if not individuals?

3: Slavery is not a state of normalcy, and if rehabilitation can't be coercive, as you say, then slavery is hardly likely to do any better than prison.

[The Parkus Empire]

I won't lie, this thread's entirely lost me.

I got a distinct impression that the OP was at least 50% tongue-in-cheek, and being used as a sort of 'this is the sort of shit Living Document will get you, so back off on it' thing. Parkus doesn't seem like the sort to be in favour of even technically legal slavery, so I was fairly comfortable in this assumption.

So, was I just making an ass of you and me by assuming, or to put it another way is this a serious and legit thing people are suggesting?

Wait, how does the living document doctrine facilitate this?

He's confusing it with the poll tax thread

[Imperial Esplanade]

Then why keep bringing up the fact that they are "sitting around" in a prison cell?

You say it's "bad" to have them work because they won't like it. Isn't it "bad" to just lock them in a cell, which they don't like either?

There is a monumental difference between a generic necessitated period of separation between criminals and the rest of the populace, and a forced system of modern-day slavery.

[Imperial Esplanade]

Death by Brain-Aids.

I paid way less than $4

You probably have actual Aids, then.

[The Parkus Empire]

A change of heart is not required by justice. Justice is coercive, you can't coerce a change of heart.

My views are derived from political theorists, not Orthodox saints. Christianity is about mercy and forgiveness. Christ rather says show mercy, not justice, because you want to be subject to mercy rather than justice from God. The state has authority and duty to punish, but I don't as an individual. If I punish, so God would punish me

They are innocent before the law prior to conviction, but rehabilitation is not about restoration of innocence before the law, they were already found guilty. It's ostensibly about restoring a state of normalcy.

I would be innocent of the crime in question, as always must be the case with some. Were I convicted anyway, I would accept it as a sort of punishment for my other transgressions

1: Can't coerce a change of heart? Of course you can, what nonsense.

2: You can preach mercy and forgiveness or you can advocate slavery. Pick one. But don't give me this whole 'I am so morally superior' tosh.

3: Slavery is not a state of normalcy, and if rehabilitation can't be coercive, as you say, then slavery is hardly likely to do any better than prison.

1. t. Commie

2. I don't claim moral superiority
.
3. This has been hashed and rehashed already

[Albrenia]

Wait, how does the living document doctrine facilitate this?

He's confusing it with the poll tax thread

I figured this was in the same vein, though. Stretching and contorting the constitution to objectionable ends, even if technically correct.

[Mike the Progressive]

I paid way less than $4

You probably have actual Aids, then.

Probably not the its Jared kind, too.

[Grenartia]

Good lord, Park. What did they put in whatever flavor of Kool-aid they gave you when you converted?

1. Doesn't change the fact that its still revenge.

2. How can you call it justice if there's no meaningful change of heart on the part of the offender?

3. Rehabilitation is the active ingredient, not the side effect.

4. That's because there *IS* a state of innocence prior to committing an offense.

5. A state which cannot truly be restored under the conditions you seek to impose.

6. Ah, hello Social Darwinism. When do I get to meet your brother, Eugenics?

7. Sure. And the only way to do that is to convince the offender they have done wrong, but they can also do better. Enslavement does the exact opposite of that.

8. Simple question. Assuming you've been falsely convicted of a crime (or even convicted of breaking an oppressive law), would YOU want to go through the process of """""justice""""" you prescribe?

1. A change of heart is not required by justice. Justice is coercive, you can't coerce a change of heart.

2. My views are derived from political theorists, not Orthodox saints. 3. Christianity is about mercy and forgiveness. 4. Christ rather says show mercy, not justice, because you want to be subject to mercy rather than justice from God. 5. The state has authority and duty to punish, but I don't as an individual. If I punish, so God would punish me

6. They are innocent before the law prior to conviction, but rehabilitation is not about restoration of innocence before the law, they were already found guilty. It's ostensibly about restoring a state of normalcy.

7. I would be innocent of the crime in question, as always must be the case with some. Were I convicted anyway, I would accept it as a sort of punishment for my other transgressions

1. If there is no change of heart, then whatever was done was for naught.

2. You leave here a decent person who advocates good things, then you come back, converted, and spouting unethical nonsense. There's only one logical conclusion I can see here, Park.

3. Funny, since you seem to not care about either, anyways.

4. Only if you accept your sadistic definition of "justice".

5. Let me lay down some Biblical teaching on you:

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

--Romans 12:17-21

6. The law is not infallible.

7. I, for one, refuse to accept false convictions as a necessary evil, and I also refuse to self-flagellate.