Poll Taxes and their Merits

[The Parkus Empire]

Are you in favor, or opposed, to poll taxes? I would attach a poll but there is no fee option.

I strongly support poll taxes. The issue is that when those who don't bear any of the burden of government, but are entitled to all the benefits, they will always support increasing the benefits irrespective of the burden. When the non-taxpayers are a smaller demographic, their voting is not such a big problem, but in a state such as California where non-taxpayers are a major demographic, it is disastrous. Government will always tend toward financial incontinence when those who don't pay for it, get a major say and are pandered to. I also stress that poll taxes are the only alternative to high property taxes, and that property taxes escalating leads to massive rent hikes, gentrification and ghettos (because only shit neighborhoods are safe from prohibitive property taxes).

Imagine a grown man. He lives with his parents, and contributes nothing. Suddenly he says, "I am an adult, I should get an equal say in running the house." How does that strike you? Imagine him having a say on the household budget. Does that make sense?

[Albrenia]

The right to vote only requires one to be of age and mentally competent. That you or I don't approve of how they vote doesn't really give a good reason for them to be denied their right.

[The Parkus Empire]

The right to vote only requires one to be of age and mentally competent. That you or I don't approve of how they vote doesn't really give a good reason for them to be denied their right.

Yeah, that's correct, the right to vote does not require one to pay taxes (although it once did). I am arguing against that. The reason France under the aristocracy was so financially incontinent is precisely because the aristocracy didn't pay taxes. The same malady will repeat itself any time people who don't pay for the government get a major say in it.

[MERIZoC]

everyone but pseudo libertarians should be able to vote

[Ikania]

You are governed, you deserve a say in how you are governed. Government cannot exist without the necessary liberty of self-government, else it is tyranny. Plain and simple.

[The Parkus Empire]

You are governed, you deserve a say in how you are governed. Government cannot exist without the necessary liberty of self-government, else it is tyranny. Plain and simple.

This is the grown man who lives with his parents argument

[The Parkus Empire]

everyone but pseudo libertarians should be able to vote

What's a pseudo libertarian?

[Zyr and Pony]

Poll taxes disproportionately affect the poor, and in the past had racist intent (Hence the 24th amendment making them illegal). Everyone of age should have a right to vote, regardless of income or ability to pay some ridiculous tax.

As to poll taxes being the only alternative to high property taxes, that's logically fallicious. We could raise taxes further on the rich, who contribute a smaller portion of their economy than the poor (sitting on most of it meaning it won't go back into the economy) to use one proposal.

[Ikania]

You are governed, you deserve a say in how you are governed. Government cannot exist without the necessary liberty of self-government, else it is tyranny. Plain and simple.

This is the grown man who lives with his parents argument

I wouldn't say that's any good way to live, but the point stands. Regardless of his contribution to society through tax dollars, the man in his mother's basement is a citizen of the country. He obeys the law and cooperates with the government and exercises his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness on the daily. As long as he is subject to the law, he should have a say in the law. Period. If we begin judging people and giving greater volume to the high earners of society, it ignores the many people who never had to work, and have never contributed anything, and never will. Inheritance kids. Lottery winners, et cetera. The poor will be marginalized even more.

[Cute Puppies]

I think there should be poll taxes because democracy is a hologram, poor people don't deserve a voice in politics, and $$$$$.

[The Parkus Empire]

Poll taxes disproportionately affect the poor, and in the past had racist intent (Hence the 24th amendment making them illegal). Everyone of age should have a right to vote, regardless of income or ability to pay some ridiculous tax.

As to poll taxes being the only alternative to high property taxes, that's logically fallicious. We could raise taxes further on the rich, who contribute a smaller portion of their economy than the poor (sitting on most of it meaning it won't go back into the economy) to use one proposal.

Raise property taxes higher on the rich, or? Income tax doesn't fund what property taxes and poll taxes fund.

[The Parkus Empire]

This is the grown man who lives with his parents argument

I wouldn't say that's any good way to live, but the point stands. Regardless of his contribution to society through tax dollars, the man in his mother's basement is a citizen of the country. He obeys the law and cooperates with the government and exercises his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness on the daily. As long as he is subject to the law, he should have a say in the law. Period. If we begin judging people and giving greater volume to the high earners of society, it ignores the many people who never had to work, and have never contributed anything, and never will. Inheritance kids. Lottery winners, et cetera. The poor will be marginalized even more.

So should he get a say in running the household including the budget?

[Cute Puppies]

Imagine a grown man. He lives with his parents, and contributes nothing. Suddenly he says, "I am an adult, I should get an equal say in running the house." How does that strike you? Imagine him having a say on the household budget. Does that make sense?

In all seriousness, government is not your mother's basement, Parkus. Government is formed by the people for the people. Its primary functions are to serve and protect its citizens' interests and freedoms, and the best way to do that is with inclusive democratic votes on our public representatives. Instituting a poll tax is a threat to people's right to vote as it acts as an economic barrier to the poor and serves no purpose beyond revenue.

[Ikania]

I wouldn't say that's any good way to live, but the point stands. Regardless of his contribution to society through tax dollars, the man in his mother's basement is a citizen of the country. He obeys the law and cooperates with the government and exercises his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness on the daily. As long as he is subject to the law, he should have a say in the law. Period. If we begin judging people and giving greater volume to the high earners of society, it ignores the many people who never had to work, and have never contributed anything, and never will. Inheritance kids. Lottery winners, et cetera. The poor will be marginalized even more.

So should he get a say in running the household including the budget?

A household is an improper example. His parents can throw him out easily, because he is a grown man and probably able to take care of himself unless he has a disability. The homeowners have no obligation to respect or uphold his inalienable rights, since they own the house. When the example is applied to America, you have to factor in constitutional rights, or at least, the universal human rights. And more or less everything else associated with respecting someone's right to live and govern themselves. I think it would be best to argue without that analogy, because it makes things too complicated.

[The Liberated Territories]

everyone but pseudo libertarians should be able to vote

What's a pseudo libertarian?

He's talking about himself.

[Zyr and Pony]

Poll taxes disproportionately affect the poor, and in the past had racist intent (Hence the 24th amendment making them illegal). Everyone of age should have a right to vote, regardless of income or ability to pay some ridiculous tax.

As to poll taxes being the only alternative to high property taxes, that's logically fallicious. We could raise taxes further on the rich, who contribute a smaller portion of their economy than the poor (sitting on most of it meaning it won't go back into the economy) to use one proposal.

Raise property taxes higher on the rich, or? Income tax doesn't fund what property taxes and poll taxes fund.

IIRC, most places all taxes go into the same pot, so I don't see why raising income taxes wouldn't cover what raising property taxes or implementing a poll tax would.

Also, what of the people living paycheck to paycheck, not having any money to spare for a poll tax? Why should they not have a right to vote in our democracy?

[Greed and Death]

Poll taxes are not inherently bad the problem was they were construed and enforced in a way to prevent people from voting based on race.

So it just dumped them in mass.

[Albrenia]

Don't people who buy things pay tax anyway? So the only people who shouldn't vote based on the 'basement dweller' theory would be survivalists without a job who live off the land.

[Doraderra]

To me, this just sounds like a transparent attempt to justify denying people you disagree with the right to vote. There's no other reason you'd bring up California than to shit on leftists. Poll taxes are completely immoral, and we got rid of them for a reason.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

everyone but pseudo libertarians should be able to vote

What are pseudo-libertarians?

[Jelmatt]

Finances and the economy ain't the only aspect of government, Parkus, or even necessarily the most major one. Laws are a thing. And even if someone doesn't pay a poll tax, they certainly have a stake in the creation of the law. Denying them the right to vote essentially is saying that their interests is unimportant in forming the law, and that the law can be exercised over them without any regards to their wishes and desires.

[VoVoDoCo]

I wouldn't say that's any good way to live, but the point stands. Regardless of his contribution to society through tax dollars, the man in his mother's basement is a citizen of the country. He obeys the law and cooperates with the government and exercises his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness on the daily. As long as he is subject to the law, he should have a say in the law. Period. If we begin judging people and giving greater volume to the high earners of society, it ignores the many people who never had to work, and have never contributed anything, and never will. Inheritance kids. Lottery winners, et cetera. The poor will be marginalized even more.

So should he get a say in running the household including the budget?

If you believe in private property, that's not a contradiction.

The parents own the home, so the child gets no say, no matter how old they are.

But nobody owns the government.

Though I could see some sense in not allowing people of a certain income vote for referendums that they wouldn't have to pay for.

[The Parkus Empire]

So should he get a say in running the household including the budget?

A household is an improper example. His parents can throw him out easily, because he is a grown man and probably able to take care of himself unless he has a disability. The homeowners have no obligation to respect or uphold his inalienable rights, since they own the house. When the example is applied to America, you have to factor in constitutional rights, or at least, the universal human rights. And more or less everything else associated with respecting someone's right to live and govern themselves. I think it would be best to argue without that analogy, because it makes things too complicated.

There is no universal human right to vote, that's "nonsense upon stilts". It's true an amendment to the U.S. Constitution says the right to vote shall not be abridged for failure to pay a tax, but I do argue that this amendment should be repealed

[The Parkus Empire]

Don't people who buy things pay tax anyway? So the only people who shouldn't vote based on the 'basement dweller' theory would be survivalists without a job who live off the land.

A tax small children and tourists pay.

[Albrenia]

Don't people who buy things pay tax anyway? So the only people who shouldn't vote based on the 'basement dweller' theory would be survivalists without a job who live off the land.

A tax small children and tourists pay.

So they should get votes too, if taxation is the metric by which one earns a vote.