NationStates

Alvecia wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Let those without sin cast the first stone. Unless you're throwing them at gays, adulterers, or heathens.

Or other Christians for that matter.

And we don't do that anymore. We did in the Middle Ages until the 1800s, afaik(haven't really heard of mainstream Christian denominations killing heathens in the 20th century unless we want to get into fringe groups of Christians), but that was so that we could keep Europe Christian at the time instead of letting it fall to Islam and Paganism. It's like how America executed it's own citizens accused of being Soviet spies during the Red Scare of the '50s.

Dylar wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Or other Christians for that matter.

And we don't do that anymore. We did in the Middle Ages until the 1800s, afaik(haven't really heard of mainstream Christian denominations killing heathens in the 20th century unless we want to get into fringe groups of Christians), but that was so that we could keep Europe Christian at the time instead of letting it fall to Islam and Paganism. It's like how America executed it's own citizens accused of being Soviet spies during the Red Scare of the '50s.

Interesting that you interpret "throwing stones" as literally throwing stones.

Alvecia wrote:

Dylar wrote:And we don't do that anymore. We did in the Middle Ages until the 1800s, afaik(haven't really heard of mainstream Christian denominations killing heathens in the 20th century unless we want to get into fringe groups of Christians), but that was so that we could keep Europe Christian at the time instead of letting it fall to Islam and Paganism. It's like how America executed it's own citizens accused of being Soviet spies during the Red Scare of the '50s.

Interesting that you interpret "throwing stones" as literally throwing stones.

I interpreted it as throwing stones, burnings, torture racks, etc. How'd you want me to interpret it?

Dylar wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Interesting that you interpret "throwing stones" as literally throwing stones.

I interpreted it as throwing stones, burnings, torture racks, etc. How'd you want me to interpret it?

Metaphorically.

Alvecia wrote:

Dylar wrote:I interpreted it as throwing stones, burnings, torture racks, etc. How'd you want me to interpret it?

Metaphorically.

Ah shit. I see what you did there. Damn my fatigue.

Dylar wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Metaphorically.

Ah shit. I see what you did there. Damn my fatigue.

Happens to the best of us.

Firaxin wrote:

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Well, imposing extreme suffering on them for no reason is quite frankly evil.

Only those who can personally speak with God will know what it is, but there is a reason.

[citation FUCKING needed]

Firaxin wrote:

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Well, imposing extreme suffering on them for no reason is quite frankly evil.

Only those who can personally speak with God will know what it is, but there is a reason.

What do you mean?

Fireye wrote:

Firaxin wrote:Only those who can personally speak with God will know what it is, but there is a reason.

[citation FUCKING needed]

Dude how far back are you? That was over a week ago.

That wasn't a debate where one can present evidence.

Geneviev wrote:

Firaxin wrote:Only those who can personally speak with God will know what it is, but there is a reason.

What do you mean?

There's a reason suffering exists that isn't out of malevolence. God claims to be omnibenevolent and I believe He exists, so the logical conclusion is that suffering is beneficial or good in some way.

Firaxin wrote:

Geneviev wrote:What do you mean?

There's a reason suffering exists that isn't out of malevolence. God claims to be omnibenevolent an I believe He exists, so the logical conclusion is that suffering is beneficial or good in some way.

If it is not a problem, would you bother to explain further?

Firaxin wrote:

Geneviev wrote:What do you mean?

There's a reason suffering exists that isn't out of malevolence. God claims to be omnibenevolent and I believe He exists, so the logical conclusion is that suffering is beneficial or good in some way.

Seems like the best answer I’ve gotten from a Christian

Alvecia wrote:

Dylar wrote:I interpreted it as throwing stones, burnings, torture racks, etc. How'd you want me to interpret it?

Metaphorically.

Metaphorically, this still doesn't contradict Christianity. Those words were Christ's, the center of Christianity. It is concurrent with other verses, like "judge not, lest you be judged," and not condemning when one has a "mote in thy own eye."

Minzerland II wrote:

Reikoku wrote:
How is it evidence though?

Of a biblical Jesus? That's the main source material, mate.

It's just making claims about him, that's not evidence. The Bible itself is historically dubious, with several Old Testament books such as Daniel being categorized as myths by historians, and events in the New Testament such as the massacre of innocence being denied by Herod's biographers, who don't shy away from his horrible exploits.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:

Firaxin wrote:There's a reason suffering exists that isn't out of malevolence. God claims to be omnibenevolent and I believe He exists, so the logical conclusion is that suffering is beneficial or good in some way.

Seems like the best answer I’ve gotten from a Christian

The problem is with the outcomes of that statement. If suffering is beneficial then we must of course cause people to suffer. And the old testament in itself somewhat contradicts this. Suffering is intended to punish, that is to show people they have done wrong. As an example we have god causing plagues or sending that wurm to eat Jonahs plant. If instead there was no need to punish then of what benefit is suffering?

Heaven is also still a problem. If in heaven people do not suffer, and heaven is supposedly a perfect realm, then what benefit is suffering? Why does god not make earth like heaven?

Neutraligon wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Seems like the best answer I’ve gotten from a Christian

The problem is with the outcomes of that statement. If suffering is beneficial then we must of course cause people to suffer. And the old testament in itself somewhat contradicts this. Suffering is intended to punish, that is to show people they have done wrong. As an example we have god causing plagues or sending that wurm to eat Jonahs plant. If instead there was no need to punish then of what benefit is suffering?

Heaven is also still a problem. If in heaven people do not suffer, and heaven is supposedly a perfect realm, then what benefit is suffering? Why does god not make earth like heaven?

We mustn't cause anyone to suffer, smallpox, yellow jackets, and cracking your shin on a trailer hitch all do that well enough without human action.

Hakons wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Metaphorically.

Metaphorically, this still doesn't contradict Christianity. Those words were Christ's, the center of Christianity. It is concurrent with other verses, like "judge not, lest you be judged," and not condemning when one has a "mote in thy own eye."

And seemingly contradictory to all of those other verses judging others.

Alvecia wrote:

Hakons wrote:
Metaphorically, this still doesn't contradict Christianity. Those words were Christ's, the center of Christianity. It is concurrent with other verses, like "judge not, lest you be judged," and not condemning when one has a "mote in thy own eye."

And seemingly contradictory to all of those other verses judging others.

Scripture tells Christians to not judge others. We are not judges, so we cannot condemn others. However, God, Who we profess to be the source of justice and morality, can judge people, because He knows us through and through as well as His moral law through and through.

Hakons wrote:

Alvecia wrote:And seemingly contradictory to all of those other verses judging others.

Scripture tells Christians to not judge others. We are not judges, so we cannot condemn others. However, God, Who we profess to be the source of justice and morality, can judge people, because He knows us through and through as well as His moral law through and through.

Then perhaps you should wait until they die so God can judge them rather than trying to do God's job for him, hm?

Alvecia wrote:

Hakons wrote:
Scripture tells Christians to not judge others. We are not judges, so we cannot condemn others. However, God, Who we profess to be the source of justice and morality, can judge people, because He knows us through and through as well as His moral law through and through.

Then perhaps you should wait until they die so God can judge them rather than trying to do God's job for him, hm?

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" Matt 7:2.

hmm?

Neutraligon wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Seems like the best answer I’ve gotten from a Christian

The problem is with the outcomes of that statement. If suffering is beneficial then we must of course cause people to suffer. And the old testament in itself somewhat contradicts this. Suffering is intended to punish, that is to show people they have done wrong. As an example we have god causing plagues or sending that wurm to eat Jonahs plant. If instead there was no need to punish then of what benefit is suffering?

Heaven is also still a problem. If in heaven people do not suffer, and heaven is supposedly a perfect realm, then what benefit is suffering? Why does god not make earth like heaven?

We are not to cause suffering to others because Christ has told us not to cause suffering in the commandment summed up as "love one another as yourself." This particular explanation of evil says that God knows what He is doing when He allows these things to happen. God knows what is good in it, but we often do not, and it would be foolhardy to try to do things we don't understand.

As Christians profess, Earth was Heaven until humanity rejected God. If we cleve to God, He saves us from our abundant inequities.

Uxupox wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Then perhaps you should wait until they die so God can judge them rather than trying to do God's job for him, hm?

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" Matt 7:2.

hmm?

Sounds like a good reason not to

Alvecia wrote:

Uxupox wrote:
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" Matt 7:2.

hmm?

Sounds like a good reason not to

Sounds like a good reason to do what I want.

Alvecia wrote:

Hakons wrote:
Scripture tells Christians to not judge others. We are not judges, so we cannot condemn others. However, God, Who we profess to be the source of justice and morality, can judge people, because He knows us through and through as well as His moral law through and through.

Then perhaps you should wait until they die so God can judge them rather than trying to do God's job for him, hm?

No, there is a difference between judging, as in offering a conviction, and correcting bad behavior. Christians ought to correct and reprove one another, as this brings us closer to God and shows love. However, we definitely shouldn't single out sinners and ridicule them and promote hatred. That is contrary to Christ's before mentioned commandment.

Uxupox wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Sounds like a good reason not to

Sounds like a good reason to do what I want.

That position is contrary to Christianity, other religions, any morality, and good reason.