How to build an army (in a town)

[Goverwal]

Here stood a largely irrelevant and ultimately poorly worded OP.
This thread has become whatever has been made of it by others. I have given up on this scenario due to its many flaws.

[Grenartia]

I have often thought, looking around, that the typical large town of forty thousand plus people has the capacity, at least in theory, to build a fairly competent military. In a typical town of this size, you are likely to find a builders' merchant, schools, etc.
In this scenario, countries as we know them have collapsed into a series of town and city states. This means that large towns, small cities, and some neighbourhoods within larger cities all have complete autonomy, and need to serve all of the needs of the populace, including security. Small towns (without the sorts of facilities mentioned above) and villages are usually under the control of the nearest large town. Your town has just declared war on another local town.
Using only the sorts of materials that are likely to be found at schools, builders' merchants etc., your town must build an army or face permanent destruction.
This is not a place to discuss small weapons (guns, bombs, etc.), for two reasons:
1) It's dangerous. If you share this information people could die. Do you want to have to take responsibility for such suffering. I will not, so if anyone tries to break this rule I will be visiting moderation
2) We're big picture people! We want to build nuclear missiles (I'll give this as an example later), tanks, etc.

I'll start: Nuclear missiles!

The easy part here is the warhead. Many schools have materials such as plutonium, uranium, etc. (I know, it's not weapons grade, but let's make that tiny allowance at least). The difficult part is the missile. In terms of fuel, many schools will have access to hydrogen peroxide, methane, hydrogen (though it may have to be produced on site). Petrol stations often sell various types of gas (especially methane and butane). I don't know enough about rocketry to be able to pick the most practical or effective option. This is where you come in, NSG. How do we get the rocket to go anywhere? How do we ensure it goes where we want it to go, using only the materials found in a typical town?
This is an exercise in chemistry and physics, applied to a fun(?) context, which I hope will increase interest in science in the community.

Your thread is bad and you should feel bad.

Also:

1. No significant number of schools have any significant amount of uranium, much less plutonium. Much less weapons grade versions of them.
2. Most towns will not have access to refined petroleum products on their own, and those that do will not have access to crude oil to turn into refined products. And most won't have either one, and will have to depend on at least two other towns to get said refined petroleum. And even then, most of said refined petroleum will be used for the production, refinement, and transport of said petroleum, making its use in rocketry significantly wasteful (especially if you're wanting to loft a fucking nuke into the next town over). In reality, most towns will need at least several other towns' (think 4 digits) cooperation to manage to build and fuel a rocket of that kind of power. At that point, you don't have city-states warring with each other, you have small nations.


tl;dr: your scenario is impossible, economics is not on your side.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Give me some football gear and I can make you a legion worthy of Caesar.

[Goverwal]

1. No significant number of schools have any significant amount of uranium, much less plutonium. Much less weapons grade versions of them.
2. Most towns will not have access to refined petroleum products on their own, and those that do will not have access to crude oil to turn into refined products. And most won't have either one, and will have to depend on at least two other towns to get said refined petroleum. And even then, most of said refined petroleum will be used for the production, refinement, and transport of said petroleum, making its use in rocketry significantly wasteful (especially if you're wanting to loft a fucking nuke into the next town over). In reality, most towns will need at least several other towns' (think 4 digits) cooperation to manage to build and fuel a rocket of that kind of power. At that point, you don't have city-states warring with each other, you have small nations.


tl;dr: your scenario is impossible, economics is not on your side.

It's a flawed scenario, I admit. The idea is think about the theoretical science, making small allowances for impurities in the materials (as I mentioned in the OP regarding uranium. I would counter your point about the number of schools with uranium: I attend a state school with access to such materials. Nuclear radiation is on the curriculum so schools have these materials for demonstrations
On your other point: global trade is possible. You are only at war with one town/city; many other towns cities will be willing to trade with you. Japan manages to import oils so why can't we. Aside from this I should remind you that the focus of this is science, not economics.

In other news, I am wondering about the feasibility of something along the lines of a google maps-derived system to guide the missile. Any (polite) thoughts on this, or other suggestions on the issue?

[Bombadil]

I think in smaller city states or towns what you really need is a good base of slaves, a few mercenaries and then some high up generals from the wealthier members of the place.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

1. No significant number of schools have any significant amount of uranium, much less plutonium. Much less weapons grade versions of them.
2. Most towns will not have access to refined petroleum products on their own, and those that do will not have access to crude oil to turn into refined products. And most won't have either one, and will have to depend on at least two other towns to get said refined petroleum. And even then, most of said refined petroleum will be used for the production, refinement, and transport of said petroleum, making its use in rocketry significantly wasteful (especially if you're wanting to loft a fucking nuke into the next town over). In reality, most towns will need at least several other towns' (think 4 digits) cooperation to manage to build and fuel a rocket of that kind of power. At that point, you don't have city-states warring with each other, you have small nations.


tl;dr: your scenario is impossible, economics is not on your side.

It's a flawed scenario, I admit. The idea is think about the theoretical science, making small allowances for impurities in the materials (as I mentioned in the OP regarding uranium. I would counter your point about the number of schools with uranium: I attend a state school with access to such materials. Nuclear radiation is on the curriculum so schools have these materials for demonstrations

That's not a lot of uranium. You know how much enriched uranium you need?

On your other point: global trade is possible. You are only at war with one town/city; many other towns cities will be willing to trade with you. Japan manages to import oils so why can't we. Aside from this I should remind you that the focus of this is science, not economics.

Economics keeps a small city from building a ballistic missile.

In other news, I am wondering about the feasibility of something along the lines of a google maps-derived system to guide the missile. Any (polite) thoughts on this, or other suggestions on the issue?

No.

[Arvecnia]

Give me some football gear and I can make you a legion worthy of Caesar.

Hail Caesar profligate!

[Bombadil]

This is not a place to discuss small weapons (guns, bombs, etc.), for.. reasons:

..It's dangerous. If you share this information people could die. Do you want to have to take responsibility for such suffering. I will not, so if anyone tries to break this rule I will be visiting moderation..

I'll start: Nuclear missiles!

Did you really write these sentences unironically?

[Goverwal]

Having established that nobody thinks much of nuclear missiles, how do we feel about more conventional missiles? The fuel and guidance systems in particular?

[Four Truths]

Give me some football gear and I can make you a legion worthy of Caesar.

Degenerates like you belong on a cross.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

[Grenartia]

1. No significant number of schools have any significant amount of uranium, much less plutonium. Much less weapons grade versions of them.
2. Most towns will not have access to refined petroleum products on their own, and those that do will not have access to crude oil to turn into refined products. And most won't have either one, and will have to depend on at least two other towns to get said refined petroleum. And even then, most of said refined petroleum will be used for the production, refinement, and transport of said petroleum, making its use in rocketry significantly wasteful (especially if you're wanting to loft a fucking nuke into the next town over). In reality, most towns will need at least several other towns' (think 4 digits) cooperation to manage to build and fuel a rocket of that kind of power. At that point, you don't have city-states warring with each other, you have small nations.


tl;dr: your scenario is impossible, economics is not on your side.

1. It's a flawed scenario, I admit. 2. The idea is think about the theoretical science, making small allowances for impurities in the materials (as I mentioned in the OP regarding uranium. 3. I would counter your point about the number of schools with uranium: I attend a state school with access to such materials. 4. Nuclear radiation is on the curriculum so schools have these materials for demonstrations
5. On your other point: global trade is possible. You are only at war with one town/city; many other towns cities will be willing to trade with you. 6. Japan manages to import oils so why can't we. 7. Aside from this I should remind you that the focus of this is science, not economics.

8. In other news, I am wondering about the feasibility of something along the lines of a google maps-derived system to guide the missile. Any (polite) thoughts on this, or other suggestions on the issue?

1. If that's what you call "flawed", then the Grand Canyon is a ditch.

2. I already did. There's reasons you can't use impure materials for this shit.

3. Access that is only possible due to the state (which is effectively a collective of thousands of towns), and the state using resources at its disposal to obtain quantities of said materials. Without that state, your school no longer has access to the materials, and what little of them (and I assure you, your school doesn't have enough to build even a W54-equivalent warhead) remain will decay into some useless toxic sludge.

4. Unless you can magic a few grams of unenriched uranium into a physics package for a nuclear warhead, your point is moot.

5. Possible only due to several towns collectivizing together to share resources.

6. Japan only manages to do that because it is a collective of thousands of towns, with the resources thereof.

7. Without economic considerations, the science aspect is moot.

8. Individual towns wouldn't have the resources to operate the various systems required to have access to Google Maps and use it for rocket guidance.

What you're doing is equivalent to asking why single-celled organisms can't do the same things complex organisms like humans can do. And for literally the same reasons.

Having established that nobody thinks much of nuclear missiles, how do we feel about more conventional missiles? The fuel and guidance systems in particular?

I've already addressed the problems inherent to a single town building a rocket as you suggest. inb4 "you only addressed nuclear missiles". There is no inherent difference between a nuclear missile and a conventional missile, other than the warhead.

[The East Marches II]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

[Washington Resistance Army]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

I mean, I could probably make it happen with a full town backing me, not sure how effective it would be tho

[The East Marches II]

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

I mean, I could probably make it happen with a full town backing me, not sure how effective it would be tho

>He needs a full town and not a handful of Midwesterners

Daily Reminder: Coastals will have to face mad Max gangs of 40,000 pop size militias with these everywhere

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Having established that nobody thinks much of nuclear missiles, how do we feel about more conventional missiles? The fuel and guidance systems in particular?

A missile of any sort to a small town is like a death star to the Empire. Sure, you can use it, but the resources could have been spent better elsewhere. For the price of one self-built missile you could arm the whole town militia with state-of-the-art weapons and body armour. You could build an armoured division. Ballistic missiles have no place in town to town warfare.

Normal rocketry is possible, of course, and it might even be practical. A truck-mounted rocket launcher like the Stalin Organ could feasibly be constructed using everyday items. Those rockets are easy. But guided missiles? Not by a wide margin.

[Datlofff]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

A Pringles can and a rubber band proper against a rock doesn't make a mortar

[Datlofff]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

Seige artillery is pointless, no modern cities have walls, this isn't Jericho. Just disguise some people, sneak them in, and then have them start a massive riot as you attack from the outside. This isn't that difficult as we all look similar, and speak the same language here in America. Unless of course you are trying to attack polish hill, in which case expect moi cavalry

[Datlofff]

Given Im polish and cavalry is in my blood I would start a massive mongol like dragoon brigade and terrorize the mid west

[Datlofff]

Give me some football gear and I can make you a legion worthy of Caesar.

Degenerates like you belong on a cross.

Awe, True to Caesar

[The East Marches II]

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

Seige artillery is pointless, no modern cities have walls, this isn't Jericho. Just disguise some people, sneak them in, and then have them start a massive riot as you attack from the outside. This isn't that difficult as we all look similar, and speak the same language here in America. Unless of course you are trying to attack polish hill, in which case expect moi cavalry

My good death's head flag bearing friend, artillery is always good for something, you really can't go wrong

[Bakery Hill]

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

Seige artillery is pointless, no modern cities have walls, this isn't Jericho. Just disguise some people, sneak them in, and then have them start a massive riot as you attack from the outside. This isn't that difficult as we all look similar, and speak the same language here in America. Unless of course you are trying to attack polish hill, in which case expect moi cavalry

wow uhhh thanks general dread you're a real genius

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Given Im polish and cavalry is in my blood I would start a massive mongol like dragoon brigade and terrorize the mid west

Cavalry is not in your blood. That's nonsense. Sure, talk about cavalry all you like, but it's not because you have cavalry in your blood. If you have, you should have it checked out.

Sure, start a cavalry brigade. I will be inside a humvee with TEM manning the machine gun. See who wins that game.

>His town doesn't have the capacity to produce siege artillery

Seige artillery is pointless, no modern cities have walls, this isn't Jericho. Just disguise some people, sneak them in, and then have them start a massive riot as you attack from the outside. This isn't that difficult as we all look similar, and speak the same language here in America. Unless of course you are trying to attack polish hill, in which case expect moi cavalry

Siege artillery has been and still is quite relevant. Dropping explosives on dudes on the other side of a hill will always come in handy. Siege artillery can be used against any kind of static emplacement, not just walls. In fact, howitzers would be far more useful against walls than mortars. Starting a riot in a besieged city is not as easy as you seem to think.

[Four Truths]

Degenerates like you belong on a cross.

Awe, True to Caesar

Ave, profligate.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Your militia will operate almost entirely off of small arms and technicals and such things. Maybe you can throw together some improvised mortars like the IRA used if you're desperate for some form of longish range capabilities.

A Pringles can and a rubber band proper against a rock doesn't make a mortar

No but an oil drum modified to fling rounds in the general direction it's pointed is.