Forced Fatherhood

[Galloism]

That's a highly specific number I'd like a citation for.



Lrn to math.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/births.htm

3,945,875 live births. If 5% of women birthed rape babies, that's 197,294 births (rounded), except, you should probably roughly double that, given men are raped at about the same rate as women, which means 394,588 births.

Not disputing the percentage at which men are raped, but are the number of rapes performed by women at an equal number as men on women? IIRC, many rapes were male-to-male out of that statistic, though I could be remembering wrong.

The vast majority of men who are raped are raped by women. It's not quite the same percentage as women (about 82% of men are raped by women, while i think it was 97% of women are raped by men), but men are probably more likely to be raped overall than women, so even if it's not quite equal, it's fairly close.

[New Emeline]

Not disputing the percentage at which men are raped, but are the number of rapes performed by women at an equal number as men on women? IIRC, many rapes were male-to-male out of that statistic, though I could be remembering wrong.

M = the rate at which men are raped
W = the rate at which women are raped
mm = the rate of male-on-male rape
fm = the rate of female-on-male rape
ff = the rate of female-on-female rape
mf = the rate of male-on-female rape

M = W
M = mm + fm
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

If women are raping men at a lower rate than men are raping women (fm < mf) then women must necessarily be raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men (ff > mm).

mm + fm = ff + mf
mm + fm(-1) = ff(+1) + mf

To my knowledge, women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men: this means that ff = mm.

mm + fm = ff + mf
1 + fm = 1 + mf
fm = mf

If women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men, then men and women are necessarily raping each other at equal rates.

?

[Galloism]

Not disputing the percentage at which men are raped, but are the number of rapes performed by women at an equal number as men on women? IIRC, many rapes were male-to-male out of that statistic, though I could be remembering wrong.

M = the rate at which men are raped
W = the rate at which women are raped
mm = the rate of male-on-male rape
fm = the rate of female-on-male rape
ff = the rate of female-on-female rape
mf = the rate of male-on-female rape

M = W
M = mm + fm
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

If women are raping men at a lower rate than men are raping women (fm < mf) then women must necessarily be raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men (ff > mm).

mm + fm = ff + mf
mm + fm(-1) = ff(+1) + mf

To my knowledge, women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men: this means that ff = mm.

mm + fm = ff + mf
1 + fm = 1 + mf
fm = mf

If women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men, then men and women are necessarily raping each other at equal rates.

There's something wrong with this.

[New Emeline]

M = the rate at which men are raped
W = the rate at which women are raped
mm = the rate of male-on-male rape
fm = the rate of female-on-male rape
ff = the rate of female-on-female rape
mf = the rate of male-on-female rape

M = W
M = mm + fm
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

If women are raping men at a lower rate than men are raping women (fm < mf) then women must necessarily be raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men (ff > mm).

mm + fm = ff + mf
mm + fm(-1) = ff(+1) + mf

To my knowledge, women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men: this means that ff = mm.

mm + fm = ff + mf
1 + fm = 1 + mf
fm = mf

If women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men, then men and women are necessarily raping each other at equal rates.

There's something wrong with this.

Yeah, I think there's some weird math going on there.

[Cekoviu]

Not disputing the percentage at which men are raped, but are the number of rapes performed by women at an equal number as men on women? IIRC, many rapes were male-to-male out of that statistic, though I could be remembering wrong.

The vast majority of men who are raped are raped by women. It's not quite the same percentage as women (about 82% of men are raped by women, while i think it was 97% of women are raped by men), but men are probably more likely to be raped overall than women, so even if it's not quite equal, it's fairly close.

Can I see your sources for the latter assertion?

[Camicon]

M = the rate at which men are raped
W = the rate at which women are raped
mm = the rate of male-on-male rape
fm = the rate of female-on-male rape
ff = the rate of female-on-female rape
mf = the rate of male-on-female rape

M = W
M = mm + fm
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

If women are raping men at a lower rate than men are raping women (fm < mf) then women must necessarily be raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men (ff > mm).

mm + fm = ff + mf
mm + fm(-1) = ff(+1) + mf

To my knowledge, women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men: this means that ff = mm.

mm + fm = ff + mf
1 + fm = 1 + mf
fm = mf

If women are not raping women at a higher rate than men are raping men, then men and women are necessarily raping each other at equal rates.

?

The middle bit was messy and wrong, sorry.

Let me walk through it again.

The rate at which men are rape (M) is equal to the rate at which women are raped (W).
M = W

The rate at which men are raped is determined by the rate at which they are raped by other men (mm) and women (fm)
M = mm + fm

The rate at which women are raped is determined by the rate at which they are raped by other women (ff) and men (mf)
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

Any changes to one side of that equation must be balanced by changes to the other side of the equation. If women and raping men less often than men are raping women (fm < mf) then the difference has to be made up by an equal dissimilarity between female-on-female and male-on-male rape (ff > mm).

If women are raping men less often than men are raping women, it would look something like this: fm = mf+1

mm + fm = ff + mf + 1

That equation is not balanced, and we've already determined that (fm < mf), so the only way to balance it is to make (mm = ff+1), essentially, mm < ff. The rate at which men rape men is higher than the rate at which women rape women.

mm +1 + fm = ff + mf + 1

That would be a balanced equation (and is what I meant to write in my prior post).

But, as far as I know, men do not rape men more often than women rape women, so (ff < mm) is false. Which would make the equation impossible to be balanced, if women rape men less often than men rape women (fm < mf). So if (ff < mm is false, then (fm < mf) must also be false.

[New Emeline]

?

The middle bit was messy and wrong, sorry.

Let me walk through it again.

The rate at which men are rape (M) is equal to the rate at which women are raped (W).
M = W

The rate at which men are raped is determined by the rate at which they are raped by other men (mm) and women (fm)
M = mm + fm

The rate at which women are raped is determined by the rate at which they are raped by other women (ff) and men (mf)
W = ff + mf

M = W
mm + fm = ff + mf

Any changes to one side of that equation must be balanced by changes to the other side of the equation. If women and raping men less often than men are raping women (fm < mf) then the difference has to be made up by an equal dissimilarity between female-on-female and male-on-male rape (ff > mm).

If women are raping men less often than men are raping women, it would look something like this: fm = mf-1

mm + fm = ff + (mf-1)

That equation is not balanced, and we've already determined that (fm < mf), so the only way to balance it is to make (mm = ff-1), essentially, mm < ff. The rate at which men rape men is lower than the rate at which women rape women.

(mm-1) + fm = ff + (mf-1)

That would be a balanced equation (and is what I meant to write in my prior post).

But, as far as I know, women do not rape women more often than men rape men, so we know (mm < ff) to be false. Which would make the equation impossible to be balanced, if women rape men less often than men rape women (fm < mf). So if (mm < ff) is false, then (fm < mf) must also be false.

I'm still not sure your math is right.

[Camicon]

*snip*

I'm still not sure your math is right.

Yeah, those minus signs should have been plus signs. Edited above.
[EDIT] and stupid brackets, now removed.
[EDIT2] and more changes.

Look, I'm sure you get my point: there's an equation, it needs to stay balanced. If women were raping men at a dissimilar rate than men are raping women, then we'd see a similar disparity between the rates at which men rape men and women rape women. But we don't. So, necessarily, women cannot be raping men less often than men are raping women.

[Galloism]

The vast majority of men who are raped are raped by women. It's not quite the same percentage as women (about 82% of men are raped by women, while i think it was 97% of women are raped by men), but men are probably more likely to be raped overall than women, so even if it's not quite equal, it's fairly close.

Can I see your sources for the latter assertion?

Gotcha covered.

In the prior 12 months, where memory is most accurate:

1,473,000 women were raped by being penetrated (table 3.1).
Too few women were raped by being made to penetrate to offer a reliable sample (not the same as zero)(also table 3.1).
219,000 men were raped by being penetrated (table 3.5).
1,715,000 men were raped by being made to penetrate (also table 3.5).

Now, for purely sexist reasons, when men are raped by being made to penetrate, the CDC uses squirrely definitions to make it "not rape", but that's just because of sexism. For the purposes of forced fatherhood, rape, abortion, etc, all men involved would be those raped by being made to penetrate, pretty much.

[Cekoviu]

Can I see your sources for the latter assertion?

Gotcha covered.

In the prior 12 months, where memory is most accurate:

1,473,000 women were raped by being penetrated (table 3.1).
Too few women were raped by being made to penetrate to offer a reliable sample (not the same as zero)(also table 3.1).
219,000 men were raped by being penetrated (table 3.5).
1,715,000 men were raped by being made to penetrate (also table 3.5).

Now, for purely sexist reasons, when men are raped by being made to penetrate, the CDC uses squirrely definitions to make it "not rape", but that's just because of sexism. For the purposes of forced fatherhood, rape, abortion, etc, all men involved would be those raped by being made to penetrate, pretty much.

Fair enough for the purposes of this thread. Defining penetration as the only type of rape is rather inaccurate, but because this is about having children, I'm okay with it. It appears that male victims of any sort of sexual abuse were about half the number of female ones, but that's including things like "non-contact unwanted sexual experiences" so is irrelevant.

[Galloism]

Gotcha covered.

In the prior 12 months, where memory is most accurate:

1,473,000 women were raped by being penetrated (table 3.1).
Too few women were raped by being made to penetrate to offer a reliable sample (not the same as zero)(also table 3.1).
219,000 men were raped by being penetrated (table 3.5).
1,715,000 men were raped by being made to penetrate (also table 3.5).

Now, for purely sexist reasons, when men are raped by being made to penetrate, the CDC uses squirrely definitions to make it "not rape", but that's just because of sexism. For the purposes of forced fatherhood, rape, abortion, etc, all men involved would be those raped by being made to penetrate, pretty much.

Fair enough for the purposes of this thread. Defining penetration as the only type of rape is rather inaccurate, but because this is about having children, I'm okay with it. It appears that male victims of any sort of sexual abuse were about half the number of female ones, but that's including things like "non-contact unwanted sexual experiences" so is irrelevant.

Well, rape is quite a bit narrower than "sexual assault" or "sexual abuse" in common parlance, and probably should be.

That being said, such a discussion, while interesting, is not really within the realm of this particular thread.

[Nioya]

Except for all the men who are economically ruined by having to pay child support, and the massive bias in the family court systems that allow women to compeltely screw over men.

Abortion is murder, sorry, if it has a heart beat independent of yours, it is its own organism, and last time I check we even have laws against randomly killing animals. Also the miscarriage claim is pointless it has nothing to do with abortion

It isn’t randomly killing it. It is rectifying a situation in which another person is using the woman’s body without her consent. We have all kinds of nasty names for born persons doing that, and the fetus deserves no protections if we wish to hold it as equal to born persons.

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

But women asked for it.

[Godular]

It isn’t randomly killing it. It is rectifying a situation in which another person is using the woman’s body without her consent. We have all kinds of nasty names for born persons doing that, and the fetus deserves no protections if we wish to hold it as equal to born persons.

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

But women asked for it.

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

[Nioya]

But women asked for it.

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

No since you seem to mainly argue by abusing your opponent. And you didn’t take the opportunity before.

[Godular]

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

No since you seem to mainly argue by abusing your opponent. And you didn’t take the opportunity before.

I 'seem' to argue by proving you wrong using your own logic. Yammering on in an unrelated thread won't assist your case, however. So go there or go silent.

[Nioya]

No since you seem to mainly argue by abusing your opponent. And you didn’t take the opportunity before.

I 'seem' to argue by proving you wrong using your own logic. Yammering on in an unrelated thread won't assist your case, however. So go there or go silent.

Ugh, you used this thread to argue about abortion. Do you even read what you write?

[Godular]

I 'seem' to argue by proving you wrong using your own logic. Yammering on in an unrelated thread won't assist your case, however. So go there or go silent.

Ugh, you used this thread to argue about abortion. Do you even read what you write?

Any further responses should be directed towards the relevant thread.

[New Emeline]

It isn’t randomly killing it. It is rectifying a situation in which another person is using the woman’s body without her consent. We have all kinds of nasty names for born persons doing that, and the fetus deserves no protections if we wish to hold it as equal to born persons.

Oh hey we have a thread for that line though, so might we consider taking it there?

But women asked for it.

I really hope that's sarcasm.

[Godular]

But women asked for it.

I really hope that's sarcasm.

Noooooo... not here!

[New Emeline]

I really hope that's sarcasm.

Noooooo... not here!

What?
Honestly if I'm missing something obvious it's because I'm terrible at reading tone off internet comments.

[Omakhandia]

Basically, the options in this poll go:

- Women get a choice, men don't
- Both men and women get a choice
- Neither men nor women get a choice
- Men get a choice, women don't
- Only Sauron gets a choice

Ignoring the fifth option, it's obvious which is the best. I'd be hard pressed to see this from any other perspective, in fact.

[New Emeline]

Basically, the options in this poll go:

- Women get a choice, men don't
- Both men and women get a choice
- Neither men nor women get a choice
- Men get a choice, women don't
- Only Sauron gets a choice

Ignoring the fifth option, it's obvious which is the best. I'd be hard pressed to see this from any other perspective, in fact.

Why ignore the fifth option when it's obviously the best?

[Godular]

Noooooo... not here!

What?
Honestly if I'm missing something obvious it's because I'm terrible at reading tone off internet comments.

I’m trying to funnel the abortion-related chatter to the abortion thread. I responded to a post that brought up abortion with a reply intended to redirect the line in the same manner.

[New Emeline]

What?
Honestly if I'm missing something obvious it's because I'm terrible at reading tone off internet comments.

I’m trying to funnel the abortion-related chatter to the abortion thread. I responded to a post that brought up abortion with a reply intended to redirect the line in the same manner.

Oh, okay. Sorry.

[Christian Democrats]

So, the question posed here is this: is forced fatherhood, or the concept of legally forcing men into fatherhood for children they don't want, a just thing?

Yes, morality requires parents to act in the best interests of their children.