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"Child Porn"

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San Ivanna
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby San Ivanna » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:44 am

But it's not ok if it is used to stimulate the audience?
Why not?


well i never said it wasnt okay .. i think most people see it as not okay because it is more of a social taboo, but i still think people are a lot less offended by art or literature containing child porn than actual child porn, obviously becasue nobody has been exploited

in my opinion that is the difference ... even if literature was written to stimulate, it is okay because no child has been exploited or hurt wheras in actual child porn, there has been

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Ifreann
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:45 am

The Schro wrote:
Ifreann wrote:
The Schro wrote:So could a fucking Newsweek magazine.

Newsweek features child porn? And they haven't all been arrested?


They don't now, but they could!!11!

clearly we must place charges

Ah, yes, now I understand. Since you can't make a reasonable response to a reasonable point you'll act like it was a ridiculous point and make a ridiculous response.
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UnitedStatesOfAmerica-
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby UnitedStatesOfAmerica- » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:46 am

BunnySaurus Bugsii wrote:Do we ban the explicit depiction of acts of murder?

We do not. Movies freely portray acts of murder. Video news displays actual acts of murder.

The only criterion for whether some depiction is "child porn" should be whether a child was involved in the making of the "porn."

If models used are of legal age, or no models at all are used and the depiction is entirely built from the imagination, there is no victim.

No victim. No crime.

The wack job counter to that is that all children are victimized any time you draw what appears to be a child.
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:47 am

UnitedStatesOfAmerica- wrote:
The Schro wrote:I noticed this being brought up in another thread and wanted to start an actual discussion about it.

Not real child porn, where children are forced to do degrading things; but things made through CGI, drawing, or even literature. In America at the moment, it's kind of a hot issue. Kind of. Do you think it should be illegal for some reason? Or are you not interested in stifling the creative interests of artists?

I think you can tell my stance well enough. /discuss!

The reason drawings, CGI, and literary fiction are banned is because of religious wackjobs. The same people who want to ban Harry Potter books.


I'm not entirely sure what the case in America is right now. I don't think we've actually banned it yet like Canada has, however.

in my opinion that is the difference ... even if literature was written to stimulate, it is okay because no child has been exploited or hurt wheras in actual child porn, there has been


I think this is the general consensus.

Ah, yes, now I understand. Since you can't make a reasonable response to a reasonable point you'll act like it was a ridiculous point and make a ridiculous response.


How was it a reasonable point?

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Khadgar
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Khadgar » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:48 am

It's only child porn if it involves real children involved in porn.

I'd rather the pedophiles get off on CG kids than getting off on real kids.

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UnitedStatesOfAmerica-
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby UnitedStatesOfAmerica- » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:48 am

The Schro wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Of course, realistic but fake child porn can be a cover for real child porn.


So could a fucking Newsweek magazine.

Or National Geographic.
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UnitedStatesOfAmerica-
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby UnitedStatesOfAmerica- » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:53 am

The Schro wrote:
UnitedStatesOfAmerica- wrote:
The Schro wrote:I noticed this being brought up in another thread and wanted to start an actual discussion about it.

Not real child porn, where children are forced to do degrading things; but things made through CGI, drawing, or even literature. In America at the moment, it's kind of a hot issue. Kind of. Do you think it should be illegal for some reason? Or are you not interested in stifling the creative interests of artists?

I think you can tell my stance well enough. /discuss!

The reason drawings, CGI, and literary fiction are banned is because of religious wackjobs. The same people who want to ban Harry Potter books.


I'm not entirely sure what the case in America is right now. I don't think we've actually banned it yet like Canada has, however.

in my opinion that is the difference ... even if literature was written to stimulate, it is okay because no child has been exploited or hurt wheras in actual child porn, there has been


I think this is the general consensus.

Ah, yes, now I understand. Since you can't make a reasonable response to a reasonable point you'll act like it was a ridiculous point and make a ridiculous response.


How was it a reasonable point?

Our first attempt at banning it was under the Child Online Protection Act. While we need to protect real flesh and blood children, it is fortunate that SCOTUS dealt COPA a death blow because it's definition of child pornography was way way too vague. A picture of a mother holding her daughter's hand at the airport was considered child porn. SCOTUS said nuts to that.
Then Congress responded by passing another which also ban fictional depiction of children. You would think that when the Court says no....
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Kanabia
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Kanabia » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:18 am

I believe anything that does not harm another person should be free from any sort of intervention. We may not choose to partake in it ourselves, but no harm is done.

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UNIverseVERSE
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby UNIverseVERSE » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:22 am

Ifreann wrote:Of course, realistic but fake child porn can be a cover for real child porn.


See, again, Neil Gaiman's comments in his blog. He's specifically arguing about why he wouldn't ban lolicon, but the principle is much more widely applicable.
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:28 am

Our first attempt at banning it was under the Child Online Protection Act. While we need to protect real flesh and blood children, it is fortunate that SCOTUS dealt COPA a death blow because it's definition of child pornography was way way too vague. A picture of a mother holding her daughter's hand at the airport was considered child porn. SCOTUS said nuts to that.
Then Congress responded by passing another which also ban fictional depiction of children. You would think that when the Court says no....


Wasn't that also declared unconstitutional back in 2008?

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Ranzar
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Ranzar » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:52 am

I agree with Gaiman. Child porn involves actual children getting abused, so there's a real reason to ban it. Written or drawn material is another matter altogether, and even though a lot of people, myself included, find it more than a little bit icky, I don't think that's reason enough to suppress it.

EDIT: And if anyone says that depictions of child rape in media increase the occurence of pedophilia in the society, I say "prove it".
Last edited by Ranzar on Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Xomic
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Xomic » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:04 am

Ugh.

Well, to pull out a random example from a subculture you all likely hate, for a long time the furry fandom has allowed various fetishes to exist within it's fold, and a few years back Furaffinity, one of the major art sites devoted to furry art, allowed 'cub porn' on the website officially. Cub Porn is, naturally, a 'furry' form of child porn, all drawn or rendered.

And within this last month it was discovered that a Pedophile was dressing up in fursuits and trying to get children to have sex with him.

:palm:

My point is, naturally, that being permissive of rendered or otherwise drawn child pornography is no good, all it ends up doing is creating an atmosphere where, rather then the pedophile trying to seek professional help for his or her aliment, they begin to feel as if they're doing nothing wrong.
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Exilia and Colonies
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Exilia and Colonies » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:14 am

Xomic wrote:Ugh.

Well, to pull out a random example from a subculture you all likely hate, for a long time the furry fandom has allowed various fetishes to exist within it's fold, and a few years back Furaffinity, one of the major art sites devoted to furry art, allowed 'cub porn' on the website officially. Cub Porn is, naturally, a 'furry' form of child porn, all drawn or rendered.

And within this last month it was discovered that a Pedophile was dressing up in fursuits and trying to get children to have sex with him.

:palm:

My point is, naturally, that being permissive of rendered or otherwise drawn child pornography is no good, all it ends up doing is creating an atmosphere where, rather then the pedophile trying to seek professional help for his or her aliment, they begin to feel as if they're doing nothing wrong.


This is your point? Pah! I spit upon your very weak correlation of a point!
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Kormanthor
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Kormanthor » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:44 am

The Schro wrote:I noticed this being brought up in another thread and wanted to start an actual discussion about it.

Not real child porn, where children are forced to do degrading things; but things made through CGI, drawing, or even literature. In America at the moment, it's kind of a hot issue. Kind of. Do you think it should be illegal for some reason? Or are you not interested in stifling the creative interests of artists?

I think you can tell my stance well enough. /discuss!




Porn is not ART! Porn of any type is WRONG ....Period

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:44 am

I don't like it, but just because of that it shouldn't be banned.
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:05 am

Xomic wrote:Ugh.

Well, to pull out a random example from a subculture you all likely hate, for a long time the furry fandom has allowed various fetishes to exist within it's fold, and a few years back Furaffinity, one of the major art sites devoted to furry art, allowed 'cub porn' on the website officially. Cub Porn is, naturally, a 'furry' form of child porn, all drawn or rendered.

And within this last month it was discovered that a Pedophile was dressing up in fursuits and trying to get children to have sex with him.

:palm:

My point is, naturally, that being permissive of rendered or otherwise drawn child pornography is no good, all it ends up doing is creating an atmosphere where, rather then the pedophile trying to seek professional help for his or her aliment, they begin to feel as if they're doing nothing wrong.


Wait a minute, let me get this straight.
So...there was a furry art website with a child section, and somewhere in the world there was a furry pedo who lured in children.

Why do the two have to be related?
What proof is there that they were?

How do we know the guy wouldn't have done it anyway?

You're associating things with no grounds for them to be associated. If I beat you to death with a hockey stick, does that mean hockey should be banned?

Maybe the government should take some extra effort to target -actual- pedophiles rather than ban the ability to, as that comic guy linked several times said, "put lines on paper."

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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:06 am

Kormanthor wrote:Porn is not ART! Porn of any type is WRONG ....Period


Why not and why is it wrong?

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Kormanthor
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Kormanthor » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:07 am

It should be banned because it causes harm to alot of people

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Galloism
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:07 am

Kormanthor wrote:It should be banned because it causes harm to alot of people


So does Barney. Seriously, that guy scares the shit out of me.

EDIT: And the Burger King
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:08 am

Kormanthor wrote:It should be banned because it causes harm to alot of people


Really? How so?

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Kormanthor
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Kormanthor » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:09 am

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Last edited by Kormanthor on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:10 am

Kormanthor wrote:
The Schro wrote:
Kormanthor wrote:It should be banned because it causes harm to alot of people


Really? How so?



Are you really so dense that you can ask me a stupid question like that.?


I guess I am. Rather than sling ad hominems, how about backing up your argument?

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Trippoli
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Trippoli » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:15 am

If it is drawn Child Porn I don't care. Sense no children were harmed in creation of it. That is mostly why Child Porn is Illegal. It harms the child getting filmed or whatever.

Is that what we are talking about?
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The Schro
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby The Schro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:16 am

Trippoli wrote:If it is drawn Child Porn I don't care. Sense no children were harmed in creation of it. That is mostly why Child Porn is Illegal. It harms the child getting filmed or whatever.

Is that what we are talking about?


We're talking about the former, stuff like lolicon or even parts of The Road.

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Ashmoria
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Re: "Child Porn"

Postby Ashmoria » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:22 am

BunnySaurus Bugsii wrote:Do we ban the explicit depiction of acts of murder?

We do not. Movies freely portray acts of murder. Video news displays actual acts of murder.

The only criterion for whether some depiction is "child porn" should be whether a child was involved in the making of the "porn."

If models used are of legal age, or no models at all are used and the depiction is entirely built from the imagination, there is no victim.

No victim. No crime.

this is my position also.

freedom of expression ends at the exploitation of children. if no children are involved then it is wrong to limit freedom of expression.
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