NATION

PASSWORD

Big Stompy Mechs.

A coffee shop for those who like to discuss art, music, books, movies, TV, each other's own works, and existential angst.
User avatar
Jagalonia
Senator
 
Posts: 4921
Founded: Jun 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Big Stompy Mechs.

Postby Jagalonia » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:07 am

With Battletech on the horizon, I've been looking into D&D campaign nonsense incorporating mechs into one of my campaigns and it has me wondering. Knowing that mechs are bad and you should feel bad for all of the reasons, what would the hard physical limitations of a mech be, size and weight wise?

Apologies if this is the wrong forum. I've been gone for quite a while...
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

User avatar
Tinfect
Senator
 
Posts: 4732
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:09 am

Well, I don't think an Atlas would be particularly practical, for starters.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: PRIORITY ALERT - INTERIOR TERRITORIES | AERAVAHN INCURSION IN PROGRESS | MARTIAL LAW IS IN EFFECT | PREPARE FOR EMERGENCY EVACUATION | COORDINATE WITH LOCAL CIVIL OVERSIGHT | Indomitable Bastard #283
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28212
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:20 am

Tinfect wrote:Well, I don't think an Atlas would be particularly practical, for starters.

Especially since that pig only has a nine hex firing range and is slow as shit. Silly 'mech.
Everything for the cat.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17200
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:02 am

Look at how big animals get. Organic machinery is very robust and energy efficient, with a good strength to weight ratio. Notice that there aren't many bipedal animals bigger than humans. Most of them are extinct, and they didn't walk upright, but rather balanced in a horizontal position using tails as a counterbalance.

We can conclude that making something bipedal that is larger than the average human is a bad idea. Tall humans have a lot of health problems that come with the strain.

From this we could observe that making your mecha much larger than form-fitting power armor or a Tau Crisis Battlesuit is probably a bad idea.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Hirota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5749
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:04 am

Soooo, Battletech backer on kickstarter, and MWO player since the public beta. If I looked hard enough I might find my copies of Mechcommander and Mechwarrior Ghost Bears Legacy. I like big giant robots.

At the moment, the biggest limitations are probably on power generation. Isn't really a way to create the amount of power to actually move a 100 ton mech, let alone have it fire lasers.
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted, pedants and koi carp.
Those affected by the views, opinions or general demeanour of this poster should review this puppy picture. Those affected by puppy pictures should consider investing in an isolation tank.
Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28212
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:31 am

Trying to figure out if mechs can work in the 'real world' misses the point. It's giant machines punching each other and shooting each other.
Everything for the cat.

User avatar
Tinfect
Senator
 
Posts: 4732
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:34 am

I suggest we direct our efforts to the humble and honorable Urbanmech.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: PRIORITY ALERT - INTERIOR TERRITORIES | AERAVAHN INCURSION IN PROGRESS | MARTIAL LAW IS IN EFFECT | PREPARE FOR EMERGENCY EVACUATION | COORDINATE WITH LOCAL CIVIL OVERSIGHT | Indomitable Bastard #283
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Freilibre
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Freilibre » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:37 am

Trotskylvania wrote:Look at how big animals get. Organic machinery is very robust and energy efficient, with a good strength to weight ratio. Notice that there aren't many bipedal animals bigger than humans. Most of them are extinct, and they didn't walk upright, but rather balanced in a horizontal position using tails as a counterbalance.

We can conclude that making something bipedal that is larger than the average human is a bad idea. Tall humans have a lot of health problems that come with the strain.

From this we could observe that making your mecha much larger than form-fitting power armor or a Tau Crisis Battlesuit is probably a bad idea.


This actually brings up a really good point. I got reminded of this VSauce video too, and I think it’s fairly relevant. https://youtu.be/DkzQxw16G9w

⬤ United World Member | Security Council ⬤
Commonwealth of Freilibre

User avatar
Zyr and Pony
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Feb 20, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Zyr and Pony » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:42 am

Biggest issue I see is the Square cube law. Basically the volume of something increases faster than its area when you scale it up, which you have to compensate for
The Burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one challenging it. If you make a claim, you back it up. (and no, anecdotes are not evidence)
Bleeding-heart Liberal, through and through.
Aspie
Agnostic
Social Democrat
Yuri fan
Because so many have this
For: social democracy, gun control, LGBT rights, high taxes on the rich, cats, progressivism
Anti: gun bans, unrestrained capitalism, punitive taxes on the poor, tradition for the sake of tradition, claims that gun control advocates are after gun bans

User avatar
Reploid Productions
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 25971
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:44 am

Jagalonia wrote:With Battletech on the horizon, I've been looking into D&D campaign nonsense incorporating mechs into one of my campaigns and it has me wondering. Knowing that mechs are bad and you should feel bad for all of the reasons, what would the hard physical limitations of a mech be, size and weight wise?

Apologies if this is the wrong forum. I've been gone for quite a while...

*quietly tows thread over to A&F*
Well, the limitations kinda depend on your setting. Anything remotely realistic, you're probably looking at practical sizing being only a little larger than a human, like a power armor type of dealie. Realistically, the Square-Cube law is a harsh mistress, and realistic materials and power sources make giant stompy robots simply not physically practical.

Buuuuut.... if you're talking a DnD campaign setting, who says you gotta play by those rules? Most giant mecha shows have some form of handwavium to make the mecha work in their settings, be it Gundam's Minovsky particles, Macross' bizarre alien tech, Gurren Lagann literally running on Rule of Cool hotbloodedness, and so on. Square-Cube law? HA! Build your DnD mecha out of magical super-lightweight/durable materials! Power generation? That shit runs on pure MAGIC, yo! Stuff the captured soul of an angry goddamn GOD into that contraption!

Really, what's practical/possible in a fictional setting really heavily hinges on what the setting is. If you've got a setting with gigantic dragons, why not have giant mecha to fight 'em?
And now I'm seriously envisioning my dragonborn bard piloting some kinda giant magic-mecha because of this thread. :lol2:
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003
Reppy's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Ifreann wrote:Bring Reppy your signet rings, she is our Brony Queen now!

I believe in the magic of friendship, the wholly awesome bronydom, the conventions of fans,
the forgiveness of haters, the resurrection of faith in humanity, and love everlasting.

In nomine poni, et filly, et spiritus stable.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2020! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

User avatar
The Empire of Pretantia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39084
Founded: Oct 18, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:47 am

Tinfect wrote:I suggest we direct our efforts to the humble and honorable Urbanmech.

Brohei. UrbanMech is perfection.
ywn be as good as this video
Gacha
Trashing other people's waifus
Anti-NN
EA
Douche flutes
Zimbabwe
Putting the toilet paper roll the wrong way
Every single square inch of Asia
Lewding Earth-chan
Pollution
4Chan in all its glory and all its horror
Playing the little Switch controller handheld thing in public
Treading on me
Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, and all their cousins and sisters and brothers and wife's sons
Alternate Universe 40K
Nightcore
Comcast
Zimbabwe
Believing the Ottomans were the third Roman Empire
Parodies of the Gadsden flag
The Fate Series
US politics

User avatar
Tinfect
Senator
 
Posts: 4732
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:56 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Brohei. UrbanMech is perfection.


Ah, I see you are a Mechwarrior of culture as well.
Not anybody's bro, though.
Last edited by Tinfect on Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: PRIORITY ALERT - INTERIOR TERRITORIES | AERAVAHN INCURSION IN PROGRESS | MARTIAL LAW IS IN EFFECT | PREPARE FOR EMERGENCY EVACUATION | COORDINATE WITH LOCAL CIVIL OVERSIGHT | Indomitable Bastard #283
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20176
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:11 am

Jagalonia wrote:what would the hard physical limitations of a mech be, size and weight wise?

I think the bigger problem would be to maintain a good center of gravity, which is essential in the stability of any moving weapons system, from fighter jets to tanks. It would be even more important when applied to a weapon system walking on legs, with such a high center of gravity. Weapons designers try to keep the center of gravity as low as possible in a moving weapons system, to ensure maximum stability, as it is important to ensure a stable platform for the sensors to work reliably and accurately, and also the onboard weapons to be as accurate as possible. However, a walking weapons system will naturally have a very high center of gravity, which would require complex servos, hydraulics, and computer control systems to maintain the machine in an upright and stable state, all of which adds to the size and weight of the machine. The first mechs will most likely not be bipedal at all, but quadripedal, using four legs and four feet to provide stability, like the AT-AT in Star Wars.

I question the logic of mechs as a weapons system in the first place, as their height will make them a tempting target. The USSR, for example, always tried to make their tanks as low as possible, to ensure maximum chances of survivability. The only real advantage of the height of a mech would be the terror factor that it would exert on enemy troops, as well as increased sensor and weapons range. The feet of the mechs would also exert a very high pounds per square inch pressure on the ground, meaning that they would likely crack roads and bridges, and also sink into soft ground and become bogged down.

Some people love the idea of mechs, I have always been put off by the problems inherent with their concept.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Aclion
Senator
 
Posts: 4655
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:35 am

Don't forget that all that height has to be armored as well, as it is a tempting target. Part of the reason tanks are designed to have a low profile is that it reduces the area that needs armoring, and that it means it's easier to take cover behind things.
XKI: Recruiter, TITO Tactical Officer, Deputy WA Secretary, Emissary to Forest
TEP: Deputy Minister for WA affairs
Forest: Cartographer Emeritus
Oatland: Caesar, Cartographer
A free society rests on four boxes: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box.
It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20176
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:44 am

Aclion wrote:Don't forget that all that height has to be armored as well, as it is a tempting target. Part of the reason tanks are designed to have a low profile is that it reduces the area that needs armoring, and that it means it's easier to take cover behind things.

Yes I implied it under survivability.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Hirota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5749
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:26 am

Reploid Productions wrote:
Really, what's practical/possible in a fictional setting really heavily hinges on what the setting is. If you've got a setting with gigantic dragons, why not have giant mecha to fight 'em?
And now I'm seriously envisioning my dragonborn bard piloting some kinda giant magic-mecha because of this thread. :lol2:
It worked for Pacific Rim! :lol:
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted, pedants and koi carp.
Those affected by the views, opinions or general demeanour of this poster should review this puppy picture. Those affected by puppy pictures should consider investing in an isolation tank.
Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

User avatar
Jagalonia
Senator
 
Posts: 4921
Founded: Jun 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jagalonia » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:20 pm

All the usual arguments that don't change, square cube law, ground pressure, silhouette, weapon platform issues, falling over and breaking your hip... I'm more concerned at the point a 15-20 foot mech would just sink into the ground too much to be able to strut it's stuff. I'm not planning on going pacific rim huge with them (Dragon born in a mech suit would be f***ing hilarious though.) The logic behind using them I'm going for is that ground contact screws with plasma shielding, so the less contact you have with the ground, the more effective a plasma shield would be. There is also intimidation factor (Like in warhammer, though, the mechanicus in general doesn't tend to care about silly meatbag concepts such as "physics"...) but it's somewhat negligible when both sides have them.
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28212
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:51 pm

Man, this game moved past me by a bunch. I was an early, early adopter. How early? My first set was still called Battledroids. I used to do tournaments a lot and won most of the time. I was trying to remember what my combo was (tourneys in my area were two mechs equaling 110 tons or 115, can't remember exactly. Pretty sure it was 110.) so I went looking up the 'mechs...man, has this game moved past me by bunches. I checked out during the invasion when all the new 'mechs were introduced...can't even remember what that event was called. The part I liked the most about the setting was the part that was never going to last and sustain a system. It's not like they were going to release new source books that told you what 'mechs and parts of the game no longer work because of the ravages of war. But I liked the whole, "We've been at this so long we lost the ability to make new ones and don't even know how fucking jump ships work anymore so we'll all agree they're off limits or we're bone." That you had to patch your mech together from spare parts, the dispossessed, I dug all of that shit. But, as I said, you can't sell source books on a dwindling setting.

I have no idea what's going on now. I miss my tourney days though. Especially the dudes that wasted their tonnage on a big boy and then some light 'mech. They'd always send that little bastard forward to get completely shredded and then have to face my two mediums with their pokey ass heavy 'mech. I was one of them in my first match, I had a Victor which, thanks to the wonders of game mechanics and a ridiculously lucky roll, I jumped on one leg to win a match and then realized...wait! I remember that combo, I can figure out the tonnage from that! Victor 80, Panther 35. So it was 115...anyway, I realized a more even split in tonnage would work better for me since I couldn't count on pogoing through the next round.

As you can imagine, there are not a lot of openings to talk about your heyday as a competitive Battletech player...
Everything for the cat.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Arts & Fiction

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Snow Bird-Worldism Crash

Advertisement

Remove ads