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Gun Control III - the Gunnening

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Gun Control n Stuff - Only 2 Options Pick Carefully

If my neighbors dog craps on my lawn I have a god-given right to respond with the use of force up to and including recreational nuclear warheads
643
50%
Guns are literally the embodiment of all evil ever created by mankind, and when the last gun is finally destroyed the entire world will be at peace
210
16%
I'm lame and choose not to use a poll with wild stereotypes about both sides because I'm lame
424
33%
 
Total votes : 1277

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm

Hey uh, can any of these kill a home invader?

https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/rifles/u ... page2.html

They shoot pellets under 500 fps, so I can get away with owning them without a license in Canada. Since Canada designates airguns that shoot over 500 fps as firearms, cus Canada is actual cancer when it comes to this stuff.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Loben
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Postby Loben » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:29 pm

no
9mm

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:30 pm

Loben wrote:no
9mm

I'm tryna get around the licensing xDDD
"Blessed are the hearts that can bend; they shall never be broken." ~St. Francis de Sales
An 8 Power Civilization, with Tier 9 Technology and Type 7 Influence.
I use NS stats for the Economy and GDP spending only.
Working on this right now!

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
My favourite revenge would be:
Genivaria wrote:Giving him an anal probe with a bayonet?

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Hurtful Thoughts
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Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:48 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:Hey uh, can any of these kill a home invader?

https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/rifles/u ... page2.html

They shoot pellets under 500 fps, so I can get away with owning them without a license in Canada. Since Canada designates airguns that shoot over 500 fps as firearms, cus Canada is actual cancer when it comes to this stuff.

Short answer: "Probably not within an amount of time relevant to improving your chances of survival."

Would mostly just frighten and piss them off enough to get crimminal charges filed against you.

Most airguns over here don't jump the curb out of airsoft territory until about 600 to 900 FPS and that's only for squirrels.
Becaus 570 fps is literally airsoft velocities. You are asking if you can kill with airsoft if you replace the plastic with lead.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Gig em Aggies
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Postby Gig em Aggies » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:56 pm

Gun Manufacturers wrote:
Jolthig wrote:I fail to see the need to stock up guns against tyranny. I mean, guns can't fight against bombs or cruise missiles or tanks can they? The government would crush the armed militias.

It's more reasonable to have a gun for self-defense from a criminal, than against the government. It's simple paranoia that gun manufacturers want their buyers to believe.


I don't want my buyers to be paranoid, I just want to increase my prof... I mean, I want to promote firearms sports.

What was that GM? I think you cut out there.
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Arengin Union
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Postby Arengin Union » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:31 pm

Kernen wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Honestly Jerry Brown was always a bad dude.

But it definitely isn't treason...

Disregarding civil rights is alwasy treasonous.
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Gun Manufacturers
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Postby Gun Manufacturers » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:48 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:Hey uh, can any of these kill a home invader?

https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/rifles/u ... page2.html

They shoot pellets under 500 fps, so I can get away with owning them without a license in Canada. Since Canada designates airguns that shoot over 500 fps as firearms, cus Canada is actual cancer when it comes to this stuff.


Sure, if you use it to bludgeon a home invader to death. If you shoot a home invader with one though, you might injure them, and you'll definitely piss them off.
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Crockerland
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Postby Crockerland » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:40 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:Hey uh, can any of these kill a home invader?

https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/rifles/u ... page2.html

They shoot pellets under 500 fps, so I can get away with owning them without a license in Canada. Since Canada designates airguns that shoot over 500 fps as firearms, cus Canada is actual cancer when it comes to this stuff.

Using the gun as intended, from a distance of several dozen feet or more, it's very unlikely you'd kill anyone unless you hit them square through the eye, though at a close enough range an air gun could certainly penetrate the skull; At the end of the day, it's better than nothing, even if certainly not ideal.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 pm

Arengin Union wrote:
Kernen wrote:But it definitely isn't treason...

Disregarding civil rights is alwasy treasonous.

Thats a goalpost shift, though.

Treasonous, insofar as it is an adjective to describe an act, behavior is not itself treason. It isn't giving aid to the enemy with sufficient certainty to stick as a charge. It doesn't betray the sovereign or the government. It doesn't even necessarily betray the people if there is a legitimate policy argument in favor. And you can't say there are no legitimate policy arguments. We disagree with their efficacy, legality, or moral justification, but they aren't inherently illegitimate.

My point is just that it's clearly rhetorical hyperbole to call it treasonous or treason, and we ought not sink to gun grabber levels by engaging in hyperbole.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:31 pm

Crockerland wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:Hey uh, can any of these kill a home invader?

https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/rifles/u ... page2.html

They shoot pellets under 500 fps, so I can get away with owning them without a license in Canada. Since Canada designates airguns that shoot over 500 fps as firearms, cus Canada is actual cancer when it comes to this stuff.

Using the gun as intended, from a distance of several dozen feet or more, it's very unlikely you'd kill anyone unless you hit them square through the eye, though at a close enough range an air gun could certainly penetrate the skull; At the end of the day, it's better than nothing, even if certainly not ideal.

I mean, if I get licensing, there are certain legal groups that will help me fight the retarded laws that are against me defending myself with a firearm against a deadly threat.
"Blessed are the hearts that can bend; they shall never be broken." ~St. Francis de Sales
An 8 Power Civilization, with Tier 9 Technology and Type 7 Influence.
I use NS stats for the Economy and GDP spending only.
Working on this right now!

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
My favourite revenge would be:
Genivaria wrote:Giving him an anal probe with a bayonet?

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm

Arengin Union wrote:Raising the age to buy firearms to 21 is unconstitutional and should be grounds to depose and tried Jerry Brown and his cronies for treason.


That is a bit of a stretch don't you think? There is more standing legal precedent for age limits than there is for example, banning all civilian access to firearms. I'd think that the 21 age requirement is easier to defend as constitutional than it'd be to defend a true example of gun control from being struck down in the US, that that was ever tried.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm

I don't support any forms of gun control apart from, perhaps, an age limit around 16.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:54 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Crockerland wrote:Using the gun as intended, from a distance of several dozen feet or more, it's very unlikely you'd kill anyone unless you hit them square through the eye, though at a close enough range an air gun could certainly penetrate the skull; At the end of the day, it's better than nothing, even if certainly not ideal.

I mean, if I get licensing, there are certain legal groups that will help me fight the retarded laws that are against me defending myself with a firearm against a deadly threat.

Honestly, if someone is in your home with no right to be their you should have a right to stand your ground.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:55 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Arengin Union wrote:Raising the age to buy firearms to 21 is unconstitutional and should be grounds to depose and tried Jerry Brown and his cronies for treason.


That is a bit of a stretch don't you think? There is more standing legal precedent for age limits than there is for example, banning all civilian access to firearms. I'd think that the 21 age requirement is easier to defend as constitutional than it'd be to defend a true example of gun control from being struck down in the US, that that was ever tried.

I suspect not. Raising the age to own a certain class of arms is, obviously, legal. We see that upheld all over the place in the form of handgun sale age limits. But for all firearms? You're systematically removing the right of a class of adults, 18-20 year olds, from exercising their right to bear arms in any form. Which gets you into 14th Amendment territory. So long as the age of majority is 18, you aren't going to win on broad age restrictions.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:56 pm

Kernen wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
That is a bit of a stretch don't you think? There is more standing legal precedent for age limits than there is for example, banning all civilian access to firearms. I'd think that the 21 age requirement is easier to defend as constitutional than it'd be to defend a true example of gun control from being struck down in the US, that that was ever tried.

I suspect not. Raising the age to own a certain class of arms is, obviously, legal. We see that upheld all over the place in the form of handgun sale age limits. But for all firearms? You're systematically removing the right of a class of adults, 18-20 year olds, from exercising their right to bear arms in any form. Which gets you into 14th Amendment territory. So long as the age of majority is 18, you aren't going to win on broad age restrictions.

The courts seem to have a very retarded view about 14th amendment rights of 18-21 year olds. Given their are crimes they can be prosecuted for that those over 21 are immune from.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:59 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kernen wrote:I suspect not. Raising the age to own a certain class of arms is, obviously, legal. We see that upheld all over the place in the form of handgun sale age limits. But for all firearms? You're systematically removing the right of a class of adults, 18-20 year olds, from exercising their right to bear arms in any form. Which gets you into 14th Amendment territory. So long as the age of majority is 18, you aren't going to win on broad age restrictions.

The courts seem to have a very retarded view about 14th amendment rights of 18-21 year olds. Given their are crimes they can be prosecuted for that those over 21 are immune from.


There is a policy reason for treating 18-20 year olds differently from 21 year olds insofar as brain development is still incomplete at 18.

But it doesn't jive with the clear age of majority being 18.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:01 pm

Kernen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The courts seem to have a very retarded view about 14th amendment rights of 18-21 year olds. Given their are crimes they can be prosecuted for that those over 21 are immune from.


There is a policy reason for treating 18-20 year olds differently from 21 year olds insofar as brain development is still incomplete at 18.

But it doesn't jive with the clear age of majority being 18.

Then change the age of majority.

Personally, studying law has driven me to hate 'policy reasons.' I favour a very strict interpretation of the law; it doesn't even have to make any degree of common sense. If that's what it says, that's what it says.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:04 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kernen wrote:
There is a policy reason for treating 18-20 year olds differently from 21 year olds insofar as brain development is still incomplete at 18.

But it doesn't jive with the clear age of majority being 18.

Then change the age of majority.

Personally, studying law has driven me to hate 'policy reasons.' I favour a very strict interpretation of the law; it doesn't even have to make any degree of common sense. If that's what it says, that's what it says.

Literalism is basically the worst theory.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:05 pm

Kernen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Then change the age of majority.

Personally, studying law has driven me to hate 'policy reasons.' I favour a very strict interpretation of the law; it doesn't even have to make any degree of common sense. If that's what it says, that's what it says.

Literalism is basically the worst theory.


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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:06 pm

Kernen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Then change the age of majority.

Personally, studying law has driven me to hate 'policy reasons.' I favour a very strict interpretation of the law; it doesn't even have to make any degree of common sense. If that's what it says, that's what it says.

Literalism is basically the worst theory.

Not really.
If you've made laws so dumb that to protect societal sanety courts have to interpret them in a way that bares no relation to the actual law itself, or quietly ignore sections of the law that are inconvenient for the continued functioning of society, you've made a bad law.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:08 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kernen wrote:Literalism is basically the worst theory.

Not really.
If you've made laws so dumb that to protect societal sanety courts have to interpret them in a way that bares no relation to the actual law itself, or quietly ignore sections of the law that are inconvenient for the continued functioning of society, you've made a bad law.

Even the most aggressive forms of textualism abide by the canon to avoid absurdity, dude.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:10 pm

Kernen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Not really.
If you've made laws so dumb that to protect societal sanety courts have to interpret them in a way that bares no relation to the actual law itself, or quietly ignore sections of the law that are inconvenient for the continued functioning of society, you've made a bad law.

Even the most aggressive forms of textualism abide by the canon to avoid absurdity, dude.

You see, I'm not of the belief that societal stability is a particularly necessary thing. I think it's more important to know exactly where you stand; that your rights are not going to be removed based on a policy reason, or even more callously, the 'floodgates argument.'
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:12 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kernen wrote:Even the most aggressive forms of textualism abide by the canon to avoid absurdity, dude.

You see, I'm not of the belief that societal stability is a particularly necessary thing. I think it's more important to know exactly where you stand; that your rights are not going to be removed based on a policy reason, or even more callously, the 'floodgates argument.'


Justice, though the heavens fall? Law is not a suicide pact.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 18614
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:16 pm

Kernen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:You see, I'm not of the belief that societal stability is a particularly necessary thing. I think it's more important to know exactly where you stand; that your rights are not going to be removed based on a policy reason, or even more callously, the 'floodgates argument.'


Justice, though the heavens fall? Law is not a suicide pact.

Justice at expense of all safeguards and hurdles is what society should strive for. The fact that the UK refuses to properly consider psychiatric injury, for example, is sickening; even more so when done to protect the court from a 'flood of complex claims.'

But I've forgot what the topic originally was.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:22 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kernen wrote:
Justice, though the heavens fall? Law is not a suicide pact.

Justice at expense of all safeguards and hurdles is what society should strive for. The fact that the UK refuses to properly consider psychiatric injury, for example, is sickening; even more so when done to protect the court from a 'flood of complex claims.'

A theory of justice that advances absurd interpretations is not justice.
Last edited by Kernen on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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