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Gun Control III - the Gunnening

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Gun Control n Stuff - Only 2 Options Pick Carefully

If my neighbors dog craps on my lawn I have a god-given right to respond with the use of force up to and including recreational nuclear warheads
643
50%
Guns are literally the embodiment of all evil ever created by mankind, and when the last gun is finally destroyed the entire world will be at peace
210
16%
I'm lame and choose not to use a poll with wild stereotypes about both sides because I'm lame
424
33%
 
Total votes : 1277

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Chan Island
Senator
 
Posts: 4763
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:24 pm

Telconi wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Must have been a cheap car. And were you driving on the roads?


It was, and no.


Cool. Fair.

Learn something new every day.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Grinning Dragon
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7548
Founded: May 16, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:00 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:What gun show loophole?
Any and all FFL dealers that attended gun shows and sell firearms at said show, have to conduct a bgc.


The loophole in many states wherein regulations are loose and limited if someone buys a gun from either;

(A. A private dealer.
(B. A gun show run by an assortment of private dealers.

It's pretty straightforward. The argument that we can't budge even a little bit on expanding background checks and the like is bizarre to me. People will be able to keep their guns, people with a relatively clean record will be able to purchase guns, the only losers will be those with malicious intentions.

If that's the sound of "government overreach," then I'd have to wonder what your ideal system of gun control is, or if you'd rather scrap background checks and the like altogether for some bizarre reason.


A) private dealers at a gun show that are selling firearms are a very, small percentage so small that they don't even bother renting booth space. The other issue is if they sell x amount in a given year, they must apply for an FFL.
B) I've never seen such a thing. I've gone to gun shows since I was young going back to the 70's and its always FFLs, the private sellers that are there sell jewelry, ammo/reloading supplies, camping gear, books, crafts.
I find it odd that when it comes to firearms, and no other type of arms, we treat this portion of an enumerated right as a privilege, let alone the insane restrictions, hoops and rigamarole that no other right is subjected to.
To me it is govt overreach, and my ideal system of gun control is using both hands. Other than that, I'm against all gun control laws.
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3032
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:02 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
The loophole in many states wherein regulations are loose and limited if someone buys a gun from either;

(A. A private dealer.
(B. A gun show run by an assortment of private dealers.

It's pretty straightforward. The argument that we can't budge even a little bit on expanding background checks and the like is bizarre to me. People will be able to keep their guns, people with a relatively clean record will be able to purchase guns, the only losers will be those with malicious intentions.

If that's the sound of "government overreach," then I'd have to wonder what your ideal system of gun control is, or if you'd rather scrap background checks and the like altogether for some bizarre reason.


A) private dealers at a gun show that are selling firearms are a very, small percentage so small that they don't even bother renting booth space. The other issue is if they sell x amount in a given year, they must apply for an FFL.
B) I've never seen such a thing. I've gone to gun shows since I was young going back to the 70's and its always FFLs, the private sellers that are there sell jewelry, ammo, camping gear, books, crafts.
I find it odd that when it comes to firearms, and no other type of arms, we treat this portion of an enumerated right as a privilege, let alone the insane restrictions, hoops and rigamarole that no other right is subjected to.
To me it is govt overreach, and my ideal system of gun control is using both hands. Other than that, I'm against all gun control laws.


*Cough* FTFY
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Gig em Aggies
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7435
Founded: Aug 15, 2009
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Gig em Aggies » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:41 pm

Alright so new Gun Control thread is up since this is one is at 499 pages
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Auristania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1064
Founded: Aug 12, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:02 pm

Do you think it's okay that somebody considered safe enough to walk the streets loses a constitutional right because of a crime many many years ago?

Crime deserves fine $100 dollars: they must wait one month to get a gun. Crime deserves one year's jail, they must wait 6 more months to get a gun. Crime deserves 10 years' jail, they must wait 5 more years.

What numbers do you think are fair for each crime?

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:04 pm

Auristania wrote:
Do you think it's okay that somebody considered safe enough to walk the streets loses a constitutional right because of a crime many many years ago?

Crime deserves fine $100 dollars: they must wait one month to get a gun. Crime deserves one year's jail, they must wait 6 more months to get a gun. Crime deserves 10 years' jail, they must wait 5 more years.

What numbers do you think are fair for each crime?

None. Once you've served your sentence, full rights should be restored.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66135
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:21 pm

Auristania wrote:
Do you think it's okay that somebody considered safe enough to walk the streets loses a constitutional right because of a crime many many years ago?

Crime deserves fine $100 dollars: they must wait one month to get a gun. Crime deserves one year's jail, they must wait 6 more months to get a gun. Crime deserves 10 years' jail, they must wait 5 more years.

What numbers do you think are fair for each crime?

It's worth note I knew a guy that spent a bit of time in prison for a felony.

Improper paint disposal - felony EPA violation.

Still can't buy a gun.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:28 pm

Galloism wrote:
Auristania wrote:Crime deserves fine $100 dollars: they must wait one month to get a gun. Crime deserves one year's jail, they must wait 6 more months to get a gun. Crime deserves 10 years' jail, they must wait 5 more years.

What numbers do you think are fair for each crime?

It's worth note I knew a guy that spent a bit of time in prison for a felony.

Improper paint disposal - felony EPA violation.

Still can't buy a gun.


Wouldn't he be barred from voting in certain states also?
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66135
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:28 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Galloism wrote:It's worth note I knew a guy that spent a bit of time in prison for a felony.

Improper paint disposal - felony EPA violation.

Still can't buy a gun.


Wouldn't he be barred from voting in certain states also?

Yes, including the one we live in (or he used to live in anyway, not sure if he still does or not).
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:30 pm

Galloism wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Wouldn't he be barred from voting in certain states also?

Yes, including the one we live in (or he used to live in anyway, not sure if he still does or not).

How in the name of fuckitty-fuck is that constitutional?
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66135
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:30 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yes, including the one we live in (or he used to live in anyway, not sure if he still does or not).

How in the name of fuckitty-fuck is that constitutional?

Because he committed a felony.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:31 pm

Galloism wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:How in the name of fuckitty-fuck is that constitutional?

Because he committed a felony.

I'm aware. I'm asking how imposing extra punishments beyond the sentence is constitutional.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66135
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:36 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Galloism wrote:Because he committed a felony.

I'm aware. I'm asking how imposing extra punishments beyond the sentence is constitutional.

Oh.

The 14th amendment has a flaw.

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.


Well, two, actually, but the other one we've corrected.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:39 pm

Galloism wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I'm aware. I'm asking how imposing extra punishments beyond the sentence is constitutional.

Oh.

The 14th amendment has a flaw.

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.


Well, two, actually, but the other one we've corrected.

That's pretty ridiculous. Couldn't the SC just call it cruel and unusual though?
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66135
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:45 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Galloism wrote:Oh.

The 14th amendment has a flaw.



Well, two, actually, but the other one we've corrected.

That's pretty ridiculous. Couldn't the SC just call it cruel and unusual though?

No, as it's explicitly allowed by an amendment to the constitution that took place after the cruel and unusual one. Even if it was cruel and unusual, the explicit allowance in the 14th would probably supercede it.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Hammer Britannia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5349
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hammer Britannia » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Auristania wrote:
Do you think it's okay that somebody considered safe enough to walk the streets loses a constitutional right because of a crime many many years ago?

Crime deserves fine $100 dollars: they must wait one month to get a gun. Crime deserves one year's jail, they must wait 6 more months to get a gun. Crime deserves 10 years' jail, they must wait 5 more years.

What numbers do you think are fair for each crime?

:?

So because I decided 3 ounces of weed in my back pocket I should have to wait 6 months?
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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Galloism wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:That's pretty ridiculous. Couldn't the SC just call it cruel and unusual though?

No, as it's explicitly allowed by an amendment to the constitution that took place after the cruel and unusual one. Even if it was cruel and unusual, the explicit allowance in the 14th would probably supercede it.

courts can read bad writing in very gymnastic ways though.

'It only refers to a rebellion or crime that is being committed now.'
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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