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Gun Control III - the Gunnening

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Gun Control n Stuff - Only 2 Options Pick Carefully

If my neighbors dog craps on my lawn I have a god-given right to respond with the use of force up to and including recreational nuclear warheads
643
50%
Guns are literally the embodiment of all evil ever created by mankind, and when the last gun is finally destroyed the entire world will be at peace
210
16%
I'm lame and choose not to use a poll with wild stereotypes about both sides because I'm lame
424
33%
 
Total votes : 1277

User avatar
The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3041
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:
The Chuck wrote:
How much you need and how much interest will you pay? :P I need to buy myself a whole fleet of artillery guns...

I need about 500k but you wont get interest there's no banks on mars but once I strike it rich there ill send you double.


Nah... Give me mining rights to all that glorious iron on Mars. I'll get as much coal as I can and I'll open a steel foundry out there and use that steel to make more guns... sound good? :P
We. Will. Not. Comply.
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"I got orange tip, I got black tip, I got red and black tip, I got blue tip, I got silver tip, I got red and blue tip, I got yellow tip, and I got white tip. Frankly I don't discriminate on ammunition and I don't discriminate on who walks through those doors either." - Local Gun Store Owner
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Gig em Aggies
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7451
Founded: Aug 15, 2009
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Gig em Aggies » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:55 pm

The Chuck wrote:
Gig em Aggies wrote:I need about 500k but you wont get interest there's no banks on mars but once I strike it rich there ill send you double.


Nah... Give me mining rights to all that glorious iron on Mars. I'll get as much coal as I can and I'll open a steel foundry out there and use that steel to make more guns... sound good? :P

or you can come with me and we can build all the artillery maybe 155 long toms as we want because you can grab someones guns if all your guns are on mars
“One of the serious problems of planning against Aggie doctrine is that the Aggies do not read their manuals nor do they feel any obligations to follow their doctrine.”
“The reason that the Aggies does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the Aggies practices chaos on a daily basis.”
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Hurtful Thoughts
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5865
Founded: Sep 09, 2005
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:18 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:
The Chuck wrote:
Nah... Give me mining rights to all that glorious iron on Mars. I'll get as much coal as I can and I'll open a steel foundry out there and use that steel to make more guns... sound good? :P

or you can come with me and we can build all the artillery maybe 155 long toms as we want because you can grab someones guns if all your guns are on mars

Or we could send the gun-grabbers to Mars... it'd be cheaper.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

Blackhelm Confederacy wrote:If there was only a "like" button for NS posts....

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24286
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:17 pm

The Chuck wrote:
Gig em Aggies wrote:I need about 500k but you wont get interest there's no banks on mars but once I strike it rich there ill send you double.


Nah... Give me mining rights to all that glorious iron on Mars. I'll get as much coal as I can and I'll open a steel foundry out there and use that steel to make more guns... sound good? :P

No coal. We’re trying to not pollute the earth, remember?
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

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Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33607
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:19 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Chuck wrote:
Nah... Give me mining rights to all that glorious iron on Mars. I'll get as much coal as I can and I'll open a steel foundry out there and use that steel to make more guns... sound good? :P

No coal. We’re trying to not pollute the earth, remember?


But Mars isn't the earth...
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24286
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:22 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kowani wrote:No coal. We’re trying to not pollute the earth, remember?


But Mars isn't the earth...

You think extraction doesn’t leave an impact?
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Pax Nerdvana
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14627
Founded: May 22, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Pax Nerdvana » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:29 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:Well played Palmetto State Armory, well played.
Palmetto State Armory Betsy Ross Flag AR lower. https://twitter.com/PalmettoArmory/stat ... 4085830656

This is awesome.
I've noticed something recently. The anti-gun people are often the same ones who want to legalize drugs, which are arguably more dangerous then guns.
I am an American Christian male who is interested in various things, like SF, classic rock, guns, space travel, military history, and video games (Nintendo/retro). Franchises I like include Star Wars, Star Trek, and Transformers. #freekyle
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"Affordability
Suitability (.22LR for squirrels, bigger .22s for long range little things, and big-bore for legal hunting reasons, etc)
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-Hurtful Thoughts on stuff you want in a gun

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Hurtful Thoughts
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5865
Founded: Sep 09, 2005
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:Well played Palmetto State Armory, well played.
Palmetto State Armory Betsy Ross Flag AR lower. https://twitter.com/PalmettoArmory/stat ... 4085830656

*Sets rifle for 1776*
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

Blackhelm Confederacy wrote:If there was only a "like" button for NS posts....

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:37 pm

Pax Nerdvana wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Well played Palmetto State Armory, well played.
Palmetto State Armory Betsy Ross Flag AR lower. https://twitter.com/PalmettoArmory/stat ... 4085830656

This is awesome.
I've noticed something recently. The anti-gun people are often the same ones who want to legalize drugs, which are arguably more dangerous then guns.


Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Soviet Tankistan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 436
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:47 pm

Why do all AK bashing sessions seem to feature a heavily used 56 that's sighted in wrong with shooters that are totally unfamiliar with the gun against a mint condition AR-15 that they are very experienced with? After that, they still ignore how well the rifle did and how it is intended to be used.

There are less resources on the Kalashnikovs, partly because many people are too biased to enjoy it. I will cede the ergonomics, although it definitely isn't ugly in my eyes. It's a beautiful gun, even the ones made in basements by insurgents can't change my mind. Practically engineered and built with a purpose.

The misconceptions are too numerous to cover and the "commie" or "terrorist" gun insults are annoying too.
Ffs, of course you won't be as accurate it you sight and shoot it like an AR, it's not one and you shouldn't expect it to be one. The ballistics are obviously different, adjust and do it right.

Pretend I've never fired an AR before and I set it for 25 meters when the range is 100. If I decide to follow them exactly, I'm going to miss. Often the results were purposely cherry picked and rigged, it's no question why they showed that the design is inaccurate. They made it so.

And there are high quality AK copies along with very poorly built ARs. Not every single one was made in China, used by multiple insurgencies, ran over by a truck, and repaired in a poor man's garage, and found in dirt. They're sold new by several distributors.

Yes, there are drawbacks, but the models are very good in general. Biased "comparisons" that take capabilities out of context and reality can't change that.

Edit: I've heard complaints on reloading, but it's important to remember that there are multiple methods and some may not be as easy for you. Yes, it can be a pain of you do it wrong, but other AK enthusiasts have provided a plethora of options. Search it up.
Last edited by Soviet Tankistan on Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hurtful Thoughts
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5865
Founded: Sep 09, 2005
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:18 pm

Well, the AK is... structurally... an inferior design that's a good 20 years older than the AR-15's.

Since the reciever is regarded as the "firearm" in US legal sense, that's the part that has to last forever. Legality of parts out of the equation, a stamped load-bearing reciever/trunion may be cheaper than a barrel-extension. This means some home-stamped AK recievers may actually be in significantly better condition than anything imported prior to 1995.

The AR reciever doesn't really take much of any stress from firing, and barrel/bolt replacement is cheap/easy. And as such we have C&R eligiable SP1s that shoot just like they were fresh from the factory and re-uppered M16A1 lowers repurposed into SPRs. (yes, a sniper-rifle with a giggle-switch... it's a thing... this also means the youngest SPR reciever is about 40+ years old and was likely made back in 1974)
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

Blackhelm Confederacy wrote:If there was only a "like" button for NS posts....

User avatar
Soviet Tankistan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 436
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:19 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Pax Nerdvana wrote:This is awesome.
I've noticed something recently. The anti-gun people are often the same ones who want to legalize drugs, which are arguably more dangerous then guns.


Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?

Drugs do nothing but harm.
☭Welcome to Soviet Tankistan!☭
In Soviet Tankistan, everyone is considered a worker if they contribute. Fascists and terrorists are not welcome.


Humanity, Socialism, Order Political Compass: 8 left and 1 upwards.

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Free Arabian Nation
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1802
Founded: May 02, 2018
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Free Arabian Nation » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Soviet Tankistan wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?

Drugs do nothing but harm.

To the user
العرب الأحرار
I don't use NS Stats, for they are against the will of Liberty and God.

News
Open to TGs


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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24286
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:43 pm

Soviet Tankistan wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?

Drugs do nothing but harm.

And yet banning them has been nothing but a catastrophe.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:44 pm

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Soviet Tankistan wrote:Drugs do nothing but harm.

To the user

It's a victimless crime, except for the user. Crimes that might have been caused by drugs are not, but they're separate crimes, so it's different. Sort of like alcohol. Drinking alcohol is legal, alcohol-fueled domestic violence is not.
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Hatterleigh
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1146
Founded: Sep 07, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hatterleigh » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
Soviet Tankistan wrote:Drugs do nothing but harm.

And yet banning them has been nothing but a catastrophe.

because we live in a system based off the coercion of people based on their earthly desires in order to get money
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Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:28 pm

Soviet Tankistan wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?

Drugs do nothing but harm.


I dunno about that . Pot helps me sleep.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3041
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:15 pm

Soviet Tankistan wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Well I want both drugs and Guns. What now grasshopper?

Drugs do nothing but harm.


Amphetamines help me focus... Especially when shooting 800 yards at the range... :P
Last edited by The Chuck on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We. Will. Not. Comply.
In-Character Advertisement Space:
The Chuck wholly endorses Wolf Armaments and
Silverport Dockyards Ltd.

"I got orange tip, I got black tip, I got red and black tip, I got blue tip, I got silver tip, I got red and blue tip, I got yellow tip, and I got white tip. Frankly I don't discriminate on ammunition and I don't discriminate on who walks through those doors either." - Local Gun Store Owner
Roof Korea, Best Korea. Hippity Hoppity, 내 재산에서 꺼져
Want to discuss guns and other stuff in a relaxed Discord? click here.
Pro: Liberty/Freedoms of the Individual, Unrestricted firearms ownership

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:19 pm

The Chuck wrote:
Soviet Tankistan wrote:Drugs do nothing but harm.


Amphetamines help me focus... Especially when shooting 800 yards at the range... :P


Yeah but the shaky hands would mess that up
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Free Arabian Nation
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1802
Founded: May 02, 2018
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Free Arabian Nation » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:21 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Soviet Tankistan wrote:Drugs do nothing but harm.


I dunno about that . Pot helps me sleep.

Beer helps me happy.
العرب الأحرار
I don't use NS Stats, for they are against the will of Liberty and God.

News
Open to TGs


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Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33607
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:23 pm

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
I dunno about that . Pot helps me sleep.

Beer helps me happy.


Beer only ever helped me regret.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3041
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:42 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Chuck wrote:
Amphetamines help me focus... Especially when shooting 800 yards at the range... :P


Yeah but the shaky hands would mess that up


ADHD ;) It helps :P
We. Will. Not. Comply.
In-Character Advertisement Space:
The Chuck wholly endorses Wolf Armaments and
Silverport Dockyards Ltd.

"I got orange tip, I got black tip, I got red and black tip, I got blue tip, I got silver tip, I got red and blue tip, I got yellow tip, and I got white tip. Frankly I don't discriminate on ammunition and I don't discriminate on who walks through those doors either." - Local Gun Store Owner
Roof Korea, Best Korea. Hippity Hoppity, 내 재산에서 꺼져
Want to discuss guns and other stuff in a relaxed Discord? click here.
Pro: Liberty/Freedoms of the Individual, Unrestricted firearms ownership

User avatar
Grinning Dragon
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7562
Founded: May 16, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Oh look, another lying bint. Such things are typical of anti gunners, lying, cooked data, made up stats, etc.
“I Lied”: Anti-gun Democrat Ex-Candidate Elizabeth McCarthy’s Problems Grow…

From Florida Politics
Former Democratic state House candidate Elizabeth McCarthy confessed to a state investigator that she lied about being a medical doctor and about treating victims of the 2016 Pulse massacre in Orlando.

That’s according to documents released by the Florida Department of Health on Wednesday.

The department is charging McCarthy with violating state law by lying about being a doctor, under the state’s unlicensed activity statutes.

It’s seeking to fine her $1,000, plus costs. The department also is serving her with a cease-and-desist order, prohibiting her from telling anyone else that she is a medical doctor, according to documents provided to Florida Politics following a public records request…

With costs, she is being assessed a total penalty of $3,094.95. She has 30 days to dispute the investigation’s findings and seek a hearing, if she decides to do so.


Anything to push the anti gun agenda, lie, lie like a motherfucker.
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Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:30 pm

The Chuck wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yeah but the shaky hands would mess that up


ADHD ;) It helps :P


Oddly enough, the range is one of the few places for me that my ADHD isn’t an issue. Something about the smell of sulfur just dials me in
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
The Two Jerseys
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14843
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:43 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:Oh look, another lying bint. Such things are typical of anti gunners, lying, cooked data, made up stats, etc.
“I Lied”: Anti-gun Democrat Ex-Candidate Elizabeth McCarthy’s Problems Grow…

From Florida Politics
Former Democratic state House candidate Elizabeth McCarthy confessed to a state investigator that she lied about being a medical doctor and about treating victims of the 2016 Pulse massacre in Orlando.

That’s according to documents released by the Florida Department of Health on Wednesday.

The department is charging McCarthy with violating state law by lying about being a doctor, under the state’s unlicensed activity statutes.

It’s seeking to fine her $1,000, plus costs. The department also is serving her with a cease-and-desist order, prohibiting her from telling anyone else that she is a medical doctor, according to documents provided to Florida Politics following a public records request…

With costs, she is being assessed a total penalty of $3,094.95. She has 30 days to dispute the investigation’s findings and seek a hearing, if she decides to do so.


Anything to push the anti gun agenda, lie, lie like a motherfucker.

Jesus Christ dude, you could've warned us that we'd need eyebleach for the Florida Politics link! :eek:

Anyway, I really hope the pro-gun side goes on the offensive next election, just come out swinging and throw shit like this in the grabbers' faces.
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