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Gun Control III - the Gunnening

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Gun Control n Stuff - Only 2 Options Pick Carefully

If my neighbors dog craps on my lawn I have a god-given right to respond with the use of force up to and including recreational nuclear warheads
643
50%
Guns are literally the embodiment of all evil ever created by mankind, and when the last gun is finally destroyed the entire world will be at peace
210
16%
I'm lame and choose not to use a poll with wild stereotypes about both sides because I'm lame
424
33%
 
Total votes : 1277

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Tobleste
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Founded: Dec 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Tobleste » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:58 am

Ors Might wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
I do think we should put thought into the topic. Serious thought about how to prevent gun violence. Unfortunately including (most) gun control opponents in that discussion is like bringing a priest to an orgy. They would rather the whole thing was cancelled and they certainly won't contribute. As I've said before, I won't discuss this with you because my aim is to prevent gun violence. Yours is to prevent gun control. I can accept gun control if it leads to less gun violence. You would not accept more gun control if it led to less gun violence and would possibly accept the reverse.

I'm probably repeating myself for the third or fourth time at this stage so if you want to try and goad me into arguing, insult me or just say I'm wrong you can refer to my previous posts to know how I'd respond.

Or we refuse to limit the rights of others if there are other solutions? You understand that’s a possibility, right? That gun control isn’t the only way to tackle gun violence?


I know it isn't the only option but I hear far more from conservatives about how awful they think gun control is than how great mental healthcare reform would be and that's normally after they've given up on the "let's not politicise this" line. I doubt you'll actually read what I posted earlier but as I said to WRA, opponents to gun control focus on arguing against gun control after mass shootings. They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.

To repeat myself: to gun control opponents, Gun Access > Public Safety. Stopping Gun Control > Stopping Gun Violence.

That doesn't mean gun control opponents don't care about the victim of gun violence, it's just that they care about their own gun rights far more.
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Grinning Dragon
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Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:25 pm

Lets see, uses a shot gun but we need to ban "a made up class of firearms called assault weapons", standard capacity magazines, and the now latest boogeyman, bump stocks. Guess anti freedom foul gits are stuck in broken record mode.
Anti-Gun Legislators Know What They Know – Accurate or Not – About Gun Control
In response to the Annapolis shooting, Democrat Senator Kirsten Gillibrand says that assault weapons, bump stocks, and high capacity magazines need to be banned.


A bit of an interesting analysis: Firearms, Homicides and Suicides in America

We next wondered if there would be any correlation between the number of firearms per 100,000 non-institutionalized Americans and the number of firearm-related homicides and suicides in the United States. In the next chart, we've extracted homicide firearm death rate data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control WISQARS database to pair with the available historic firearm estimates data.

Image
We were surprised to see no apparent correlation between the rates of firearm-related homicides and the number of firearms, where the number of firearm homicides in the United States would appear to be independent of the number of firearms in civilian hands. The next chart presents what we found when we repeated the analysis with the firearm suicide death rate.


Image
Once again, we see no apparent correlation between the rates of firearm-related suicides and the number of firearms in the U.S., where the number of firearm suicides in the United States would appear to be independent of the number of firearms in civilian hands. We do however note that the rate of firearm-related suicides is about 1.5 times higher than the rate of firearm-related homicide fatalities, which is in keeping with the overall higher incidence of suicides with respect to homicides for all methods.
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery! Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Gun-Control is the belief that declawing the cat will protect it against other animals; also why are anti-gun people so violent?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:33 pm

Tobleste wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Or we refuse to limit the rights of others if there are other solutions? You understand that’s a possibility, right? That gun control isn’t the only way to tackle gun violence?


I know it isn't the only option but I hear far more from conservatives about how awful they think gun control is than how great mental healthcare reform would be and that's normally after they've given up on the "let's not politicise this" line. I doubt you'll actually read what I posted earlier but as I said to WRA, opponents to gun control focus on arguing against gun control after mass shootings. They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.

To repeat myself: to gun control opponents, Gun Access > Public Safety. Stopping Gun Control > Stopping Gun Violence.

That doesn't mean gun control opponents don't care about the victim of gun violence, it's just that they care about their own gun rights far more.


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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:49 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:
In response to the Annapolis shooting, Democrat Senator Kirsten Gillibrand says that assault weapons, bump stocks, and high capacity magazines need to be banned.

Want to hear a good one?

Senator Chris Van Hollen was on TV calling for those bans before police had even secured the building.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Tobleste wrote:They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.


Yeah, news flash buddy, some of us do that. It just so happens it's possible to try and push our ideas and point out how outrageously retarded all the Democrats ideas are on the topic at the same time.
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Grinning Dragon
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Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:58 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:

Want to hear a good one?

Senator Chris Van Hollen was on TV calling for those bans before police had even secured the building.

Did he have on his blood dancin' shoes? But then again, not at all shocked since morons like him, and pelosi, etc, et al, were all doing the same song n dance.
I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery! Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Gun-Control is the belief that declawing the cat will protect it against other animals; also why are anti-gun people so violent?
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery!
Socialism- the herpes of economic systems.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:41 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:A bit of an interesting analysis: Firearms, Homicides and Suicides in America

[flat graphs are flat]

Those line-graphs look pretty flat.

Almost as though Americans have just been killing fellow Americans as a matter of sport since 1832.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 pm

Isilanka wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
We need to organize the entire populations of states into a People's Militia, free from Federal oversight and regulation :^)


The moment you do that California and Nevada declare open war upon each other for water control.

More like any state with access to the Colorado versus California.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Tobleste wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Or we refuse to limit the rights of others if there are other solutions? You understand that’s a possibility, right? That gun control isn’t the only way to tackle gun violence?


I know it isn't the only option but I hear far more from conservatives about how awful they think gun control is than how great mental healthcare reform would be and that's normally after they've given up on the "let's not politicise this" line. I doubt you'll actually read what I posted earlier but as I said to WRA, opponents to gun control focus on arguing against gun control after mass shootings. They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.

To repeat myself: to gun control opponents, Gun Access > Public Safety. Stopping Gun Control > Stopping Gun Violence.

That doesn't mean gun control opponents don't care about the victim of gun violence, it's just that they care about their own gun rights far more.

I’m not a conservative so I honestly don’t care what you hear from them. I’ve made my arguments independent of the American right and I’ve seen plenty of gun control opponents discuss these other options. Funny how you always seem to miss those discussions.
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Postby Big Jim P » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Tobleste wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Or we refuse to limit the rights of others if there are other solutions? You understand that’s a possibility, right? That gun control isn’t the only way to tackle gun violence?


I know it isn't the only option but I hear far more from conservatives about how awful they think gun control is than how great mental healthcare reform would be and that's normally after they've given up on the "let's not politicise this" line. I doubt you'll actually read what I posted earlier but as I said to WRA, opponents to gun control focus on arguing against gun control after mass shootings. They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.

To repeat myself: to gun control opponents, Gun Access > Public Safety. Stopping Gun Control > Stopping Gun Violence.

That doesn't mean gun control opponents don't care about the victim of gun violence, it's just that they care about their own gun rights far more.


You, like most grabbers ignore the benefits of gun ownership (one of which is defending against violence) and the fact that those benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

We care enough about the victims of gun (and other) violence to be willing to defends ourselves and others. Gun grabbers only care about disarming us. They lack the courage to stand up and defend themselves and others, and those who have the courage make them look bad.

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Gig em Aggies
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Postby Gig em Aggies » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:29 am

Big Jim P wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
I know it isn't the only option but I hear far more from conservatives about how awful they think gun control is than how great mental healthcare reform would be and that's normally after they've given up on the "let's not politicise this" line. I doubt you'll actually read what I posted earlier but as I said to WRA, opponents to gun control focus on arguing against gun control after mass shootings. They don't discuss these other, supposedly great options. They instantly shut down and deny any possibility of gun control working. If they really thought other options would work, they'd be pushing them. Instead they push back against gun control.

To repeat myself: to gun control opponents, Gun Access > Public Safety. Stopping Gun Control > Stopping Gun Violence.

That doesn't mean gun control opponents don't care about the victim of gun violence, it's just that they care about their own gun rights far more.


You, like most grabbers ignore the benefits of gun ownership (one of which is defending against violence) and the fact that those benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

We care enough about the victims of gun (and other) violence to be willing to defends ourselves and others. Gun grabbers only care about disarming us. They lack the courage to stand up and defend themselves and others, and those who have the courage make them look bad.
not to mention but during the Warsaw uprising hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people armed with captured German small arms held off the German army for about a month not picture that here with American gun owners defending themselves and others for at least a month against gun grabbers.
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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:42 am

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
You, like most grabbers ignore the benefits of gun ownership (one of which is defending against violence) and the fact that those benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

We care enough about the victims of gun (and other) violence to be willing to defends ourselves and others. Gun grabbers only care about disarming us. They lack the courage to stand up and defend themselves and others, and those who have the courage make them look bad.
not to mention but during the Warsaw uprising hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people armed with captured German small arms held off the German army for about a month not picture that here with American gun owners defending themselves and others for at least a month against gun grabbers.


Considering the number of gun owners, the number of guns and the huge amount of ammo in private hands, we'll hold out a helluva lot longer than a month.

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Diche Choklate
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Diche Choklate » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:51 am

Alright, this post was just asking for it but I’ll be the one who stands against gun control. Not for any of the reasons the crazies say like “without guns the government will form a monarchy and oppress us!” But simply for the reason I trust myself with my personal protection more than the government. If I’m walking home at night I want my weapon on me ready in case I am attacked rather than hope that an officer will come along or have to tell them after my possessions are stolen. Many will make the argument against the “good guy with a gun” however the law abiding open carrier has a much different mindset than the criminal. A criminal hunts like a predator, seeking prey to slaughter like an animal. A gun owner is the prey, however, they choose to take their protection into their own hands. They hope that they do not have to use their guns. As the old adage goes, better to have it and not want it than to want it and not have it. That’s all I’m going to say on the subject.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:25 am

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
You, like most grabbers ignore the benefits of gun ownership (one of which is defending against violence) and the fact that those benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

We care enough about the victims of gun (and other) violence to be willing to defends ourselves and others. Gun grabbers only care about disarming us. They lack the courage to stand up and defend themselves and others, and those who have the courage make them look bad.
not to mention but during the Warsaw uprising hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people armed with captured German small arms held off the German army for about a month not picture that here with American gun owners defending themselves and others for at least a month against gun grabbers.


You might want to check your facts about the Warsaw Uprising. It really wasn't the Polish success you think it was.
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Isilanka
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Postby Isilanka » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:45 am

Diche Choklate wrote:Alright, this post was just asking for it but I’ll be the one who stands against gun control. Not for any of the reasons the crazies say like “without guns the government will form a monarchy and oppress us!” But simply for the reason I trust myself with my personal protection more than the government. If I’m walking home at night I want my weapon on me ready in case I am attacked rather than hope that an officer will come along or have to tell them after my possessions are stolen. Many will make the argument against the “good guy with a gun” however the law abiding open carrier has a much different mindset than the criminal. A criminal hunts like a predator, seeking prey to slaughter like an animal. A gun owner is the prey, however, they choose to take their protection into their own hands. They hope that they do not have to use their guns. As the old adage goes, better to have it and not want it than to want it and not have it. That’s all I’m going to say on the subject.


(emphasis mine)

That's an awfully simplistic depiction of criminality. What you are depicting are serial killers and/or rapists, maybe terrorists, not all criminals.
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Postby Dylar » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:47 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Gig em Aggies wrote:not to mention but during the Warsaw uprising hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people armed with captured German small arms held off the German army for about a month not picture that here with American gun owners defending themselves and others for at least a month against gun grabbers.


You might want to check your facts about the Warsaw Uprising. It really wasn't the Polish success you think it was.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:04 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Gig em Aggies wrote:not to mention but during the Warsaw uprising hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people armed with captured German small arms held off the German army for about a month not picture that here with American gun owners defending themselves and others for at least a month against gun grabbers.


You might want to check your facts about the Warsaw Uprising. It really wasn't the Polish success you think it was.

That's kinda an unfair comparison.

The Warsaw uprising was 50000 Poles vs The German War Machine. + The Poles were expecting help from the Soviets/Western allies.

Now, of course, with the Soviets being Soviets, they sat back and said "Fuck you" as they watched the city burn. Heck, they even prevented other allies from using their airbases.
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:24 pm

Well took long enough for Sheriff Israel to get the boot/fired/canned/terminated/let-go/kicked to the curb, etc.
Report: Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel To Be Fired
But his firing isn't due to malfeasance, but due to criminal issues..

According to the source, Sheriff Israel is being removed from office for criminal issues, not malfeasance, following an investigation conducted by the office of Florida Governor Rick Scott. The source exclusively revealed to Big League Politics that Sheriff Israel is also allegedly being investigated by the IRS.
According to the source in the Broward Sheriffs office, Sheriff Israel’s removal revolves around a criminal matter that the FBI is aware of. Although his failures surrounding the Parkland shooting initially sparked the investigation, it isn’t the sole reason why he is being removed. The high-level source who wished to remain anonymous told Big League Politics that Sheriff Israel is already aware of the fact that he is being removed from office next week.
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Gun-Control is the belief that declawing the cat will protect it against other animals; also why are anti-gun people so violent?
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Len Hyet
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Postby Len Hyet » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:58 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:Well took long enough for Sheriff Israel to get the boot/fired/canned/terminated/let-go/kicked to the curb, etc.
Report: Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel To Be Fired
But his firing isn't due to malfeasance, but due to criminal issues..

According to the source, Sheriff Israel is being removed from office for criminal issues, not malfeasance, following an investigation conducted by the office of Florida Governor Rick Scott. The source exclusively revealed to Big League Politics that Sheriff Israel is also allegedly being investigated by the IRS.
According to the source in the Broward Sheriffs office, Sheriff Israel’s removal revolves around a criminal matter that the FBI is aware of. Although his failures surrounding the Parkland shooting initially sparked the investigation, it isn’t the sole reason why he is being removed. The high-level source who wished to remain anonymous told Big League Politics that Sheriff Israel is already aware of the fact that he is being removed from office next week.

Looks like he was a corrupt shithead, to the surprise of absolutely no one.
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Tule
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Postby Tule » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:08 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:A bit of an interesting analysis: Firearms, Homicides and Suicides in America

We next wondered if there would be any correlation between the number of firearms per 100,000 non-institutionalized Americans and the number of firearm-related homicides and suicides in the United States. In the next chart, we've extracted homicide firearm death rate data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control WISQARS database to pair with the available historic firearm estimates data.

Image
We were surprised to see no apparent correlation between the rates of firearm-related homicides and the number of firearms, where the number of firearm homicides in the United States would appear to be independent of the number of firearms in civilian hands. The next chart presents what we found when we repeated the analysis with the firearm suicide death rate.


Image
Once again, we see no apparent correlation between the rates of firearm-related suicides and the number of firearms in the U.S., where the number of firearm suicides in the United States would appear to be independent of the number of firearms in civilian hands. We do however note that the rate of firearm-related suicides is about 1.5 times higher than the rate of firearm-related homicide fatalities, which is in keeping with the overall higher incidence of suicides with respect to homicides for all methods.


Why the hell are so many data points missing in the graph? There is plenty of data available on the number of gun homicides in the US for every single year going back to the early 1980's.

This is the laziest lying with statistics I've seen.
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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:09 pm

Len Hyet wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Well took long enough for Sheriff Israel to get the boot/fired/canned/terminated/let-go/kicked to the curb, etc.
Report: Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel To Be Fired
But his firing isn't due to malfeasance, but due to criminal issues..


Looks like he was a corrupt shithead, to the surprise of absolutely no one.

He's gonna look real spiffy in an orange Florida DOC jump suit.
I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery! Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Gun-Control is the belief that declawing the cat will protect it against other animals; also why are anti-gun people so violent?
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery!
Socialism- the herpes of economic systems.
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead. Proud American infidel since the 1970's-Deus Vult
The made up term "toxic masculinity" is founded on nonsense psychologism

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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:12 pm

Tule wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:A bit of an interesting analysis: Firearms, Homicides and Suicides in America


Image


Image


Why the hell are so many data points missing in the graph? There is plenty of data available on the number of gun homicides in the US for every single year going back to the early 1980's.

This is the laziest lying with statistics I've seen.


*Sees someone making a statistical graph that spans the years of 1994 all the way to 2017*
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Ex-Nation

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:12 pm

Valgora wrote:
Tule wrote:
Why the hell are so many data points missing in the graph? There is plenty of data available on the number of gun homicides in the US for every single year going back to the early 1980's.

This is the laziest lying with statistics I've seen.


*Sees someone making a statistical graph that spans the years of 1994 all the way to 2017*
"LIES! FAKE NEWS!"

Nah I'm with Tule. That's a shitty fucking stats job. There is zero reason not to have every single year plotted on that graph.
Last edited by Len Hyet on Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tule
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Posts: 3886
Founded: Jan 29, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Tule » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:14 pm

Len Hyet wrote:
Valgora wrote:
*Sees someone making a statistical graph that spans the years of 1994 all the way to 2017*
"LIES! FAKE NEWS!"

Nah I'm with Tule. That's a shitty fucking stats job. There is zero reason not to have every single year plotted on that graph.


Yeah, I mean everybody uses statistics to make a point. That's to be expected. That's how political opinions work. You reach a conclusion based on your gut feelings and justify it with reason afterwards. That's what everybody does.

But that's just piss poor effort.
Formerly known as Bafuria.

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Valgora
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Founded: Mar 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Valgora » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:19 pm

Len Hyet wrote:
Valgora wrote:
*Sees someone making a statistical graph that spans the years of 1994 all the way to 2017*
"LIES! FAKE NEWS!"

Nah I'm with Tule. That's a shitty fucking stats job. There is zero reason not to have every single year plotted on that graph.


I wouldn't call it a shitty stats job. It spans 23 years.
It would be different if it spanned only like two years - unless you were making a specific point about those two years.

Not only that, but Tule said that they were lying with statistics. Being lazy and lying are two different things.
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