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Gun Control III - the Gunnening

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Gun Control n Stuff - Only 2 Options Pick Carefully

If my neighbors dog craps on my lawn I have a god-given right to respond with the use of force up to and including recreational nuclear warheads
498
51%
Guns are literally the embodiment of all evil ever created by mankind, and when the last gun is finally destroyed the entire world will be at peace
145
15%
I'm lame and choose not to use a poll with wild stereotypes about both sides because I'm lame
326
34%
 
Total votes : 969

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Albrenia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7936
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:39 pm

I approve of the poll and its entirely reasonable options. :lol:

Only a few pages in and we've already had our first 'no compromise' speeches. Good times.

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Arengin Union
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Posts: 8180
Founded: Feb 23, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Arengin Union » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:42 pm

Recreational nukes are a public necessity of course.
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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21289
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:42 pm

Tule wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
It's not that we don't want to compromise, it's that there's no real compromises being offered. We're expected to just give up more of our rights and pray they don't alter the deal down the road. Which they have and will.


Even if they do, which isn't necessarily the case (gun control is very much uncontroversial in most of Europe because people feel that the laws sthey have there work, and the tendency is for gun laws to get less strict) atleast you would be slowing down the enroachment. Not giving an inch will just make gun control advocates more aggressive.


Neville Chamberlain wrote:I believe it is peace for our time.


I'd rather not be caught with my pants down like that fellow, appeasement sucks.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Ors Might
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:43 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Sure, but you aren't a Democratic lawmaker. They haven't offered a single compromise in 20 years at this point, they just want to take more and more.


This is why we need a new political party that addresses rightly the woes of the workers on both sides of the political spectrum!

Unironically this.

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The Greater Ohio Valley
Minister
 
Posts: 3314
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Sure, but you aren't a Democratic lawmaker. They haven't offered a single compromise in 20 years at this point, they just want to take more and more.


This is why we need a new political party that addresses rightly the woes of the workers on both sides of the political spectrum!

Tbh I’d rather we switch to a non-partisan system instead, political parties almost always end up being garbage.
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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:46 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Compromise? What exactly do you want for a compromise?


Bump stocks and other such devices (trigger cranks, hellfire triggers etc etc) being added to the NFA


Didn't you tell me once those are easy to make on your own?

whilst short barrel rifles/shotguns and suppressors get downgraded to normal Title 1 status and the Hughes amendment gets axed.


Soooo unless I am not understanding something; that seems a rather lopsided compromise?
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Spirit of Hope
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Posts: 8999
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:48 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Bump stocks and other such devices (trigger cranks, hellfire triggers etc etc) being added to the NFA


Didn't you tell me once those are easy to make on your own?

whilst short barrel rifles/shotguns and suppressors get downgraded to normal Title 1 status and the Hughes amendment gets axed.


Soooo unless I am not understanding something; that seems a rather lopsided compromise?

Gun control advocates get something they have been demanding, while a number of things that are heavily over regulated have their regulations reduced to a more reasonable level. Seems like a great compromise, I'd be sold on such a compromise even if we only got the reduction in regulation of silencer or the removal of hughes.
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Tule
Senator
 
Posts: 3882
Founded: Jan 29, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Tule » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:51 pm

Telconi wrote:
Tule wrote:
Even if they do, which isn't necessarily the case (gun control is very much uncontroversial in most of Europe because people feel that the laws sthey have there work, and the tendency is for gun laws to get less strict) atleast you would be slowing down the enroachment. Not giving an inch will just make gun control advocates more aggressive.


Neville Chamberlain wrote:I believe it is peace for our time.


I'd rather not be caught with my pants down like that fellow, appeasement sucks.


I live in a country where gun appeasement was the method of choice. Guns aren't banned. They are restricted certainly, but they are becoming less so over time. 5 years ago you couldn't get a suppressor. You can now. 10 years ago, you couldn't get semi-auto rifles, you can now. 30 years ago you couldn't get semi-auto or pump-action shotguns. You can now. 40 years ago you couldn't get bolt action rifles larger than .22. You can now.
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Fartsniffage
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29948
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:51 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Hey now, I offered the compromise of focusing on the core issues instead of stealing guns!


Sure, but you aren't a Democratic lawmaker. They haven't offered a single compromise in 20 years at this point, they just want to take more and more.


Manchin-Toomey 2013.

A ban on a central gun registry, including up to 15 years in prison for anyone attempting to centralise gun records. Expansion on interstate sales to include hand guns via licensed sellers. Military members able to buy guns in their home state as well as the state they're stationed in Liability shield to private sellers who sell to a person who passed a background check. Increased funding for the NICS. A reduction in waiting times before a seller can complete a transfer in the event the check with NICS is taking time. A commission to study the causes of gun violence including mental health, guns, school safety and portrayals of violence in the media.

All to require background checks on all sales at gun shows and over the internet.

Seems like quite a compromise to me....

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Ors Might
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:51 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:

Didn't you tell me once those are easy to make on your own?



Soooo unless I am not understanding something; that seems a rather lopsided compromise?

Gun control advocates get something they have been demanding, while a number of things that are heavily over regulated have their regulations reduced to a more reasonable level. Seems like a great compromise, I'd be sold on such a compromise even if we only got the reduction in regulation of silencer or the removal of hughes.

Now if only we could get gun control advocates to respect it for more than ten years.

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38447
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:53 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Bump stocks and other such devices (trigger cranks, hellfire triggers etc etc) being added to the NFA


Didn't you tell me once those are easy to make on your own?

whilst short barrel rifles/shotguns and suppressors get downgraded to normal Title 1 status and the Hughes amendment gets axed.


Soooo unless I am not understanding something; that seems a rather lopsided compromise?


They're stupid easy to make, but almost every gun is nowadays. I can't go too into details yet but I happen to know some guys who have perfected 3D printed machine gun receivers for example.
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Australian gun control didn't work. A rebuttal to the "well regulated militia" argument.

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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21289
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:54 pm

Tule wrote:
Telconi wrote:


I'd rather not be caught with my pants down like that fellow, appeasement sucks.


I live in a country where gun appeasement was the method of choice. Guns aren't banned. They are restricted certainly, but they are becoming less so over time. 5 years ago you couldn't get a suppressor. You can now. 10 years ago, you couldn't get semi-auto rifles, you can now. 30 years ago you couldn't get semi-auto or pump-action shotguns. You can now. 40 years ago you couldn't get bolt action rifles larger than .22. You can now.


And I'm supposed to believe that someone like you is going to give it back after taking it? Yeah, I'll pass.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21352
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:54 pm

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
This is why we need a new political party that addresses rightly the woes of the workers on both sides of the political spectrum!

Tbh I’d rather we switch to a non-partisan system instead, political parties almost always end up being garbage.


Abolish parties entirely, complete anarchy!
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Wysten
Minister
 
Posts: 2406
Founded: Apr 29, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wysten » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:58 pm

Telconi wrote:
Tule wrote:
Even if they do, which isn't necessarily the case (gun control is very much uncontroversial in most of Europe because people feel that the laws sthey have there work, and the tendency is for gun laws to get less strict) atleast you would be slowing down the enroachment. Not giving an inch will just make gun control advocates more aggressive.


Neville Chamberlain wrote:I believe it is peace for our time.


I'd rather not be caught with my pants down like that fellow, appeasement sucks.

"Peace in our time" aka "The biggest Curb Your Enthusiasm moment in history."
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Tule
Senator
 
Posts: 3882
Founded: Jan 29, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Tule » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:01 pm

Telconi wrote:
Tule wrote:
I live in a country where gun appeasement was the method of choice. Guns aren't banned. They are restricted certainly, but they are becoming less so over time. 5 years ago you couldn't get a suppressor. You can now. 10 years ago, you couldn't get semi-auto rifles, you can now. 30 years ago you couldn't get semi-auto or pump-action shotguns. You can now. 40 years ago you couldn't get bolt action rifles larger than .22. You can now.


And I'm supposed to believe that someone like you is going to give it back after taking it? Yeah, I'll pass.


I don't know about the US but where I live ex post facto legislation is illegal. Guns that are still banned but were purchased when they were legal are still possessed by those who originally purchased them. I think that is fair.
Formerly known as Bafuria.
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Fartsniffage
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29948
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 pm

Tule wrote:
Telconi wrote:
And I'm supposed to believe that someone like you is going to give it back after taking it? Yeah, I'll pass.


I don't know about the US but where I live ex post facto legislation is illegal. Guns that are still banned but were purchased when they were legal are still possessed by those who originally purchased them. I think that is fair.


Possession is a continuous act. It's pretty easy to legal ban possession of an item without breaching ex post facto rules.

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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21289
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 pm

Tule wrote:
Telconi wrote:
And I'm supposed to believe that someone like you is going to give it back after taking it? Yeah, I'll pass.


I don't know about the US but where I live ex post facto legislation is illegal. Guns that are still banned but were purchased when they were legal are still possessed by those who originally purchased them. I think that is fair.


Which isn't relevant to a ban...
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38447
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 pm

Tule wrote:
Telconi wrote:
And I'm supposed to believe that someone like you is going to give it back after taking it? Yeah, I'll pass.


I don't know about the US but where I live ex post facto legislation is illegal. Guns that are still banned but were purchased when they were legal are still possessed by those who originally purchased them. I think that is fair.


Yeah, the Democrats don't respect that kinda stuff. California is excellent evidence of the slippery slope being real.
Angry American who likes guns and trees
Islamophobia is a virtue
Australian gun control didn't work. A rebuttal to the "well regulated militia" argument.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 pm

Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum
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Fartsniffage
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:04 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum


But it passes the time until we die.

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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21289
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:05 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum


Come up with a reasonable idea?
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21352
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:05 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum


Have you considered offering ideas that tackle the core issues leading to gun violence rather than ideas that tackle guns themselves?
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User avatar
Albrenia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7936
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:05 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum


Pretty much, just with both sides calling each other immoral, underhanded murderers of various stripes. Personally I think we should throw in the towel and see about trying to do as much as we can with non-gun control methods.

User avatar
Valgora
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6635
Founded: Mar 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Valgora » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:06 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Everytime I have a gun control debate here it goes exactly like this:

>Some tool runs around shooting people

> I and other gun control advocates go "We need to do something to prevent this happening again!"

> People on the other side shut down any idea we come up with

> Nothing ends up happening, just a lot of noise that does nothing

> Repeat process ad infinitum


Actually it's more like:
Gun control advocates ignore any logical and rational idea that would help prevent mass shootings because it doesn't involve banning firearms or taking away people's rights.
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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38447
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:07 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Sure, but you aren't a Democratic lawmaker. They haven't offered a single compromise in 20 years at this point, they just want to take more and more.


Manchin-Toomey 2013.

A ban on a central gun registry, including up to 15 years in prison for anyone attempting to centralise gun records. Expansion on interstate sales to include hand guns via licensed sellers. Military members able to buy guns in their home state as well as the state they're stationed in Liability shield to private sellers who sell to a person who passed a background check. Increased funding for the NICS. A reduction in waiting times before a seller can complete a transfer in the event the check with NICS is taking time. A commission to study the causes of gun violence including mental health, guns, school safety and portrayals of violence in the media.

All to require background checks on all sales at gun shows and over the internet.

Seems like quite a compromise to me....


Not nearly enough for UBC's if you ask me, I don't really gain anything from that. FOPA already bans non-NFA registries and pretty much the only other decent thing in there that interests me is the bit about military members but given how few people that impacts I'm not gonna take that in exchange for everyone else having to deal with a ton more hassle.
Angry American who likes guns and trees
Islamophobia is a virtue
Australian gun control didn't work. A rebuttal to the "well regulated militia" argument.

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