Formality and etiquette. Do we need them anymore?

[Pax Nerdvana]

Etiquette and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

[Bakery Hill]

fuck no

[Ifreann]

We never needed formality and etiquette. But we kept it around, and realistically will continue to keep it around, because it's useful for showing respect.

[Old Tyrannia]

Social etiquette is an important marker of civilised society and plays a key role in the maintenance of an orderly society. Rules of etiquette may change through time according to circumstances, but the concept of etiquette itself will never be obsolete.

[Pax Nerdvana]

We never needed formality and etiquette. But we kept it around, and realistically will continue to keep it around, because it's useful for showing respect.

Which is pretty much the only reason it still has a little value.

[Northwest Slobovia]

You're mixing two different ideas. We don't need fussy rules which ape the idealized actions of long-dead groups of idle rich people (etiquette). We do need practical rules for interacting with people who are neither friends nor relatives, such as coworkers, bosses, and customers (formality).

It doesn't really matter if you start a conversation with the guy who lives down the street but you don't really know with "hello, my good man" or "yo, dawg", so long as everybody understands that this is a neutral greeting.

[The Parkus Empire]

No, it's been the domain of all classes. Just different sorts. But sophisticated aristocratic etiquette started in the middle ages as a way of distinguishing nobility (which often extended down to propertyless knights elevated from serfdom) from the often equally or more wealthy monied class. Such complex etiquette no longer widely exists.

[Purpelia]

A civilization abandoning formality and adopting an attitude of "everything is fine" and "everything is acceptable" has made the first step toward its grave.

[Risottia]

Yes, we do, and we also need proper spelling.

[The Parkus Empire]

Yes, we do, and we also need proper spelling.

Standardization is degenerate

[Purpelia]

we also need proper spelling.

What we need are proper spell checking plugins for our web browsers. Like my browser right now recognizes Mordor as a word but can not provide me with how to properly spell exercise so I have to look the word up on google translate. Also, according to it google is not a word.

I blame the young people.

[Risottia]

Yes, we do, and we also need proper spelling.

Standardization is degenerate

It's useful. And common courtesy towards non-native speakers.
If one doesn't know how to spell English, there is plenty of dictionaries and spell-checkers. I don't see why I should be bothered with interpreting the gibberish of ignorants while I'm already busy writing and reading in a foreign language.

[USS Monitor]

Ettiqute and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

I think we should stop rushing so much that we don't have time for anything.

Which fork to use for salad isn't very important, and I don't recall my school ever teaching that, but other things like saying "thanks" or greeting people are worth keeping around. Etiquette is more than just fancy, complicated, upper class things; and it is not pointless. Some specific rules or rituals (like the forks or letting ladies go ahead of you if you're going through a door) may have outlived their usefulness, and that's fine. The rules of etiquette change over time, but the concept of etiquette is still worthwhile. It's important as a way to show other people that you respect them, and from a more practical point of view, having good manners makes it easier to do well in job interviews and improves your effectiveness in sales or service jobs.

[The Parkus Empire]

Ettiqute and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

I think we should stop rushing so much that we don't have time for anything.

Which fork to use for salad isn't very important, and I don't recall my school ever teaching that, but other things like saying "thanks" or greeting people are worth keeping around. Etiquette is more than just fancy, complicated, upper class things; and it is not pointless. Some specific rules or rituals (like the forks or letting ladies go ahead of you if you're going through a door) may have outlived their usefulness, and that's fine. The rules of etiquette change over time, but the concept of etiquette is still worthwhile. It's important as a way to show other people that you respect them, and from a more practical point of view, having good manners makes it easier to do well in job interviews and improves your effectiveness in sales or service jobs.

Aagh, culture is not justified by utility

[Likar]

We must remember, that we only can use the nationstates forums if we use Etiquette...

[USS Monitor]

Standardization is degenerate

It's useful. And common courtesy towards non-native speakers.
If one doesn't know how to spell English, there is plenty of dictionaries and spell-checkers. I don't see why I should be bothered with interpreting the gibberish of ignorants while I'm already busy writing and reading in a foreign language.

This is true, especially for people whose English is worse than yours that might need to look up unfamiliar words in order to keep up with the conversation. Translators won't work if the word is not spelled correctly.

Sometimes they have problems with slang too, even if it is a deliberate usage rather than just a misspelling. I had a hell of a time with a German sentence that had the word "Klopp" in it because apparently that's some kind of slang.

[Des-Bal]

Formality and etiquette aren't pointless, you just don't get the point of them.

The purpose of formality it to highlight something as significant. For example, if there's any question about whether or not you made a deal with someone you can point to the fact that you shook hands as a formality. Now clothes are a different, weird story because the reason we have a suit and tie black and white dress code is an explicit rejection of fancy clothing. It's a tradition that might bear reconsidering.


The purpose of etiquette is to make other people comfortable. The different forks do different things. Does it have an edge for cutting? Is it big enough to get a large chunk of steak into your mouth without falling off? Can it separate and pick up tiny pieces of very delicate pastry? The rules for setting a table are to avoid mostly to limit the chances of someone knocking something over or spilling.

[USS Monitor]

We must remember, that we only can use the nationstates forums if we use Etiquette...

Some areas of NS have very specialized etiquette that goes beyond just following the site rules. Got Issues people will flip out over things that literally nobody else cares about -- though there are often reasons for it, grounded in a desire to keep the forum orderly and produce quality drafts.

[Sovaal]

There’s still formal occasions, so yes.

[The Free Joy State]

Ettiqute and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

I think being polite matters, and I don't think it has to be formal. Practicalities like everyday table manners, saying "please" and "thanks", looking someone in the eyes when you talk to them, always attempting to be on time (and calling in advance if you're going to be late) all show respect for the people you meet. People tend to respond better to people who show courtesy.

Good manners are different to strict formality, though. I think that, unless you're moving among the gentry, formality - like how to eat an eight course dinner with the requisite forks - isn't really necessary (and, although some schools are having to teach children how to use a fork, I admit to never having seen formal dining on a school curriculum).

Generally, though, good manners don't have to be fancy, but I think they are still relevant, and make it easier to get along with others in society.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Ettiqute and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

The fuck kinda school did you go to?

[Katganistan]

we also need proper spelling.

What we need are proper spell checking plugins for our web browsers. Like my browser right now recognizes Mordor as a word but can not provide me with how to properly spell exercise so I have to look the word up on google translate. Also, according to it google is not a word.

I blame the young people.

Or people who actually care enough to lean their own language properly. There are native speakers on this forum whose attitude is "English is broken", not "If I expect people to read my posts with ease I actually have to put in the effort to learn my own language."

Sadly, most of the people with the best English on the internet have learned it as a second language.

It's this laziness that also ties in with a disdain for proper and correct social interaction with others, and then feeling offended when others consider their lack of manners rude or ignorant.

[Liriena]

The need for formality was always a rather artificial construct with no real necessity behind it beyond that which we ourselves constructed. As such... I mean, formality and etiquette are nice in some contexts, but I do think we are witnessing a disolution of traditional forms of them.

[Ifreann]

Ettiqute and formality have been around for centuries. It typically has been the domain of the wealthy and the upper class. But do we really need it anymore? It seems to have more or less fallen by the wayside in our casual, modern lifestyle. It is overly fancy, complicated, and utterly pointless, unless you're the president or something. Most schools teach how to set a table and which of the 3 kinds of forks you're supposed to use for salad. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and a waste of time. Our modern lifestyle is too fast and casual. We are always on the move, running late trying to get places. We don't have the time anymore.
So what do you think NSG?

The fuck kinda school did you go to?

One with meals that included a salad course, evidently.

[Katganistan]

The fuck kinda school did you go to?

One with meals that included a salad course, evidently.

Three forks -- either dessert or a fish fork for the third? Is it set above the plate or to the right of it?