Uni of Exeter law students in racist WhatsApp msgs row

[Bombadil]

...not tolerate such language and sentiments.

Burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that they actually hold the opinions of what was said. I don't think you can honestly claim that they collectively hold these particular sentiments just because they joked about them.

Doubt it, I imagine the University has clear guidelines and policies on speech and this group transgressed them, up to them to prove they don't mean it.

[Bakery Hill]

Doing a bit of my own research I think it's very difficult to say that British white millennial men are heavily inclined to the political right in the way that they are in the US. I can't find data by race and age, but by going off Ipsos Mori's polling you can extrapolate. Firstly you have Corybn's massive victory among 18-24 and 25-34 year olds (62-27 and 56-27 respectively) and secondly you have Corbyn's score amongst white voters losing them 39-45 which is only minutely smaller than the national average 41-44.

Edit: Corbyn won heavily among millennial men too, among 18-24 and 25-34 year olds (52-36 and 54-30 respectively) and I'd be so charitable to say that that slight bump there might entail Something Is Going On, however small.

[Cekoviu]

I'm pretty iffy on this, considering that it was a private message rather than them being racist on campus afaik.

[Hirota]

Burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that they actually hold the opinions of what was said. I don't think you can honestly claim that they collectively hold these particular sentiments just because they joked about them.

Doubt it, I imagine the University has clear guidelines and policies on speech and this group transgressed them, up to them to prove they don't mean it.

Except in every practically every civilized society since the greeks that's simply not how burden of proof works.

[Cekoviu]

Is it really surprising that institutions don't want racists working or studying with them? It's a perfectly legitimate response.

I'm absolutely convinced it is more a matter of not being perceived as having racists working or studying with them. I'm sure that any company of sufficient size (having worked in several) will have small private groups of co-workers of various demographics who share off-colour jokes between one another.

The problem with worrying about the optics of the matter is that it tends to lead to a loss of perspective.

...not tolerate such language and sentiments.

Burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that they actually hold the opinions of what was said. I don't think you can honestly claim that they collectively hold these particular sentiments just because they joked about them.

Boy, I am really tired of the "it's just a joke guise!!" defense for racism, sexism, etc. Is there anything short of these student marching with tiki torches and murdering nonwhites that would actually convince you that they're racist and not just joking?

[Firaxin]

The entire situation is pretty much



This guy lost months of his life because he posted the equivalent of a dead and bad meme. Wow.

[Cekoviu]

The entire situation is pretty much

(Image)

This guy lost months of his life because he posted the equivalent of a dead and bad meme. Wow.

The lesson to be learned here is that you need to stay up to date with memes or you'll be perceived as a racist normie.

[Hirota]

I'm absolutely convinced it is more a matter of not being perceived as having racists working or studying with them. I'm sure that any company of sufficient size (having worked in several) will have small private groups of co-workers of various demographics who share off-colour jokes between one another.

The problem with worrying about the optics of the matter is that it tends to lead to a loss of perspective.

Burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that they actually hold the opinions of what was said. I don't think you can honestly claim that they collectively hold these particular sentiments just because they joked about them.

Boy, I am really tired of the "it's just a joke guise!!" defense for racism, sexism, etc.

Fortunately, my patience for putting overreacting hyperbolic bullshit in it's place is nearly endless. So I fear you'll have to live with it.

Is there anything short of these student marching with tiki torches and murdering nonwhites that would actually convince you that they're racist and not just joking?

Actual violence will do - it doesn't have to be murder. Otherwise, it's all about context and not making sweeping assertions based on sensationalist news articles.

[Vassenor]

The entire situation is pretty much

(Image)

This guy lost months of his life because he posted the equivalent of a dead and bad meme. Wow.

So it's fine to be racist as long as you use the current memes to do so?

[Cekoviu]

Boy, I am really tired of the "it's just a joke guise!!" defense for racism, sexism, etc.

Fortunately, my patience for putting overreacting hyperbolic bullshit in it's place is nearly endless. So I fear you'll have to live with it.

Is there anything short of these student marching with tiki torches and murdering nonwhites that would actually convince you that they're racist and not just joking?

Actual violence will do - it doesn't have to be murder. Otherwise, it's all about context and not making sweeping assertions based on sensationalist news articules.

If you think the original news article was sensationalist, I'm wondering what you consider to not be sensationalist.

[Bombadil]

Doubt it, I imagine the University has clear guidelines and policies on speech and this group transgressed them, up to them to prove they don't mean it.

Except in every practically every civilized society since the greeks that's simply not how burden of proof works.

Not really, if I call you a complete retard for making this point you can report me to Moderation and I'd have to convince them I was not serious or joking not to receive a warning.

[Firaxin]

The entire situation is pretty much

(Image)

This guy lost months of his life because he posted the equivalent of a dead and bad meme. Wow.

So it's fine to be racist as long as you use the current memes to do so?

That's implying he intended to be racist. Which I doubt. It all depends on intent for me. If he intended to do it then was it justified? is the next question.

[Mujahidah]

So it's fine to be racist as long as you use the current memes to do so?

That's implying he intended to be racist. Which I doubt. It all depends on intent for me. If he intended to do it then was it justified? is the next question.

"dirty Arab"

Really? Not intending to be racist? Are you serious?

[Proctopeo]

Oh no! They were shitposting in private and someone said a no-no word! This is clearly a proportional punishment and certainly not a mountain made of an anthill.

[Cekoviu]

Oh no! They were shitposting in private and someone said a no-no word! This is clearly a proportional punishment and certainly not a mountain made of an anthill.

Several people said several no-no words multiple times.

[Firaxin]

That's implying he intended to be racist. Which I doubt. It all depends on intent for me. If he intended to do it then was it justified? is the next question.

"dirty Arab"

Really? Not intending to be racist? Are you serious?

I meant using Nigga, didn't notice that one, but then the next question is, was that justified? Was the man an Arab who was dirty? If he was that is incredibly rude, but not enough to lose months of one's life. Plus good Comedy is built to offend, If he used that as a way to insult the man directly and anyone by association, then it is racist.

[Vassenor]

So it feels like we've come back to "but is it OK if I use the N-word this way?"

[Proctopeo]

Oh no! They were shitposting in private and someone said a no-no word! This is clearly a proportional punishment and certainly not a mountain made of an anthill.

Several people said several no-no words multiple times.

What treachery! Evidently this proves that they weren't making a mountain of an anthill or other small hill-like structure because they said several no-no words more than once!

So it feels like we've come back to "but is it OK if I use the N-word this way?"

It always been like that. Just change the "er" to an "a" and now you can say it in a song!

[NeuPolska]

This is an overreaction. Shitposting in a private group chat is now apparently enough to be branded “racist.” Especially in regards to the “nigga” thing, that in particular is a word which is very heavily used and to the point of being so common that it really depends on the context.

[Trumptonium]

Potentially throwing someone out of a university for saying "this nigga looks like he's bout to bang the most assists of 2018" is not a proportionate response.

How many black students have been removed for using those terms? Perhaps they need an investigation into the rapping society.



viewtopic.php?f=20&t=436943&p=33597708&hilit=white+men+college+18+24#p33597708

Although deserting the Dems faster than joining the GOP, point is still there.

unfortunately US polling data is incredibly primitive compared to the UK and they don't release the associated PDF's
nevertheless "White men with a college degree voted Trump by 53% to 39%", though I'd like to see an age breakdown as well

Do you have any data for the UK though?

Specifically for the 18-24 demographic? Unfortunately not no. However this should be easy to request as some already have a full set of data on White (/British), 18-24 and male, so it's a question of getting raw figures and putting those 3 variables together.

From some blips in data from 2017 election we see the following: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/fil ... tion_2.pdf

• Males aged 18 to 24 are twice as likely to vote Conservative as females (36% to 18%)
• Whites voted 45% Tories to 39% Labour (1% more likely to vote Tory, 2% less likely to vote Lab, though this includes White Europeans/Americans et al.

This means males aged 18 to 24 were 4% more likely to vote Conservative than in 2015 (32% > 36%), while women were 6% less likely to vote Conservative (24% > 18%). That's a pretty huge move away from equilibrium and shows young males are drifting away from the national trends (which are towards Labour.)

BMG Research began including White British / BME as a new divider starting after last year's election, so this should be easier to track in the future. However separating by age and/or gender still hasn't arrived.

Whether you are sceptical or not, it is impossible to deny that this a sign of 'Something Going On' when young males are voting 36% Conservative and having voted so in increasing numbers since 2015, while females in the same age group have not only crashed 6% in their likelihood to vote Conservative, but also do so with just 18%.

It's very rare to say 'x group is twice as conservative as x', but it's especially surprising this is just a gender gap on the same age group.

More curiously, males between 18-24 were 6% more likely to vote Conservative than 25 to 34, and just 4% less likely to vote Conservative than 35 to 54. In fact, males between 18 to 24 were as likely to vote Conservative as females between 35 to 54. For all intents and purposes, young males in the UK are going through a period of very intense political ageing and are basically middle-age voters. One would guess that these figures would be even more conservative if you only go by non-BME voters, and perhaps even more than that if you go by degree holders/current HE students.

This gives me hope.

[Bakery Hill]

In a non-rhotic accent the "nigger" vs "nigga" distinction makes no sense. It shouldn't matter in a rhotic accent either really.

[Alvecia]

.@ExeterGuild are investigating allegations regarding conduct of society leaders. We cannot comment until the investigation concludes. Where members have broken the code of conduct we will take action, referring to University disciplinary processes where necessary. (2/2)

I dunno, that sound spretty reasonable to me.

Still, sucks to be this uni.

If they ignore this kind of thing:
"Bigoted uni is encouraging racism"

If they investigate:
"PC uni shuts down free speech"

Rock and a hard place.

[Trumptonium]

The point with that saga was that it was a tradition among company leavers to 'rate' their colleagues .. males rating females and females rating males. It went on for years. It was then revealed for the first time last week. It was a bit of harmless fun.

I bet a tenner that it was one of the ugly bugs who reported it to newspapers.



The point here is that there's an increasingly blurred line between humour and nasty intent.

The guy who said 'this nigga looks like he bout to bang the most assists of 2018' is a clear example of humour ... however his humour is leading him to losing job offers. It's his fault for being an idiot and trusting the wrong people and not being anonymous on the internet, but the fact remains there was no wrong intent.



It's already normalised though.

What you're doing by suggesting it be underground is just propagating actual hatred rather than humorous posts. Would you like your CV to be thrown in the bin by a disgruntled white recruiter if they see a wrong name? Because that's what will increasingly happen.

Yes, I would like recruiters to be able to evaluate on the basis of job-seekers' behavior.

Clearly not what I meant.

[Hirota]

Except in every practically every civilized society since the greeks that's simply not how burden of proof works.

Not really, if I call you a complete retard for making this point you can report me to Moderation and I'd have to convince them I was not serious or joking not to receive a warning.

Like already I said elsewhere, context is important, and I believe the moderators - as generally decent human beings - on here know that. If other people struggle with context, that's on them.

If you really want to test the ability of the moderators to understand context, how about you self-report your post without comment?

[Ifreann]

You'd think law students would know better than to make multiple records, records they don't have any control over, of things they wouldn't want seen in public.