White? Why not pay more?

[Reblibre]

Well, no, not amazing, but I am somewhat baffled at times by this laser-guided high sensitivity for what, to me at least, is at worst annoying wording for an otherwise harmless concept.

I mean, my feelings are more often hurt by malice and apathy than they are by someone giving a term with our "name" on it to the fact that many of us have learned to react to the uncomfortable topic of race in unhelpful ways.

If anything, I find the often suspiciously timely screaming of "why can't I have cis straight/white/male pride parades/history months!" a lot more offensive because it feels like I'm being used as a crutch by insecure douchebags' desperate need to steal the spotlight from the people they've been crappy towards.

I haven't been crappy towards other races.

[Liriena]

If anything, I find the often suspiciously timely screaming of "why can't I have cis straight/white/male pride parades/history months!" a lot more offensive because it feels like I'm being used as a crutch by insecure douchebags' desperate need to steal the spotlight from the people they've been crappy towards.

As someone who is on different sides of that equation for different parts of that statement, I don't see any real issue with anyone having parades if anyone can. A cis/het/white/male parade/history month is unlikely to get much support from the general populace, but anyone should feel free to try and set one up.

I agree. My problem isn't with the concepts in and of themselves. In isolation, they're fine. The problem is in their framing. For instance, interest for International men's Day, which is already a thing, spikes the most during International Women's Day, rather than International Men's Day itself. Pretty telling.

[Liriena]

If anything, I find the often suspiciously timely screaming of "why can't I have cis straight/white/male pride parades/history months!" a lot more offensive because it feels like I'm being used as a crutch by insecure douchebags' desperate need to steal the spotlight from the people they've been crappy towards.

I haven't been crappy towards other races.

I wasn't talking about you.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

[…]Being white myself, […]

“White” :^)

[Ostroeuropa]

As someone who is on different sides of that equation for different parts of that statement, I don't see any real issue with anyone having parades if anyone can. A cis/het/white/male parade/history month is unlikely to get much support from the general populace, but anyone should feel free to try and set one up.

I agree. My problem isn't with the concepts in and of themselves. In isolation, they're fine. The problem is in their framing. For instance, interest for International men's Day, which is already a thing, spikes the most during International Women's Day, rather than International Men's Day itself. Pretty telling.

International mens day receives almost no press or coverage. This isn't suprising. It's an example of how that thing you're complaining about being a useful tool for raising awareness.
It's not "Pretty telling."
It's basic instincts toward fairness and equality causing people to check for something and raise their own awareness that institutions utterly failed to do, ultimately that is beneficial. You view it negatively for some reason. (Pssssst. It's because you're surrounded by toxic memes due to the misandry in the movement.)

Google still has never celebrated international mens day, as an immediate example.

You're complaining about grassroots awareness raising and ignoring that it's directly the result of institutional bias and misandry, and framing it as negative and evidence that their intentions are impure.

That's what progressivism has done to you and how you interact with people.

[Liriena]

In short, and off the top of my head, I use it as a short-hand for a repeated pattern of attitude behavior I've seen in some white people (though I wouldn't say it's exclusive to white people) when faced with discussions about race, particularly when talking about more subtle, less visibly extreme forms of racism. Said attitude and behavior being one of individualization, personal defensiveness and attempts to shut down the conversation entirely with empty universalist platitudes when faced with concepts like racial disparities in income, unconscious biases, the role of racism in the historical and contemporary prosperity in Western societies, contemporary racial biases in law enforcement, academia or the culture industry...

'Universalist platitudes' is a phrase you use when defining something off the top of your head?

I'm a social sciences student. My life is 80% reading stuff with pretentious vocabulary.

Ok, so what your saying is that 'white fragility' is when white people don't like being confronted about subtle or unobvious examples of racial inequalities?

In a clumsy nutshell that doesn't quite reflect my meaning... kinda.

[Liriena]

[…]Being white myself, […]

“White” :^)

Goddammit.

That CFK pic in the background, tho

[The Provincial Union of the Pacific]

In the words of Pres. Crawford
"Battling inequality with inequality only results in worse and claimed justified inequality to even out the, uh, inequality"

Treating Group A better than Group B because they were originally treated unjust will cause those who originally treated them unjust to see that since they get special treatment, their mistreatment is now equalled out and does not need to change.

[Bombadil]

Who knew this would become about white men..

[FelrikTheDeleted]

As someone who is on different sides of that equation for different parts of that statement, I don't see any real issue with anyone having parades if anyone can. A cis/het/white/male parade/history month is unlikely to get much support from the general populace, but anyone should feel free to try and set one up.

I agree. My problem isn't with the concepts in and of themselves. In isolation, they're fine. The problem is in their framing. For instance, interest for International men's Day, which is already a thing, spikes the most during International Women's Day, rather than International Men's Day itself. Pretty telling.

To be fair, not many people really know that there is a Men’s day (at least not many men or women that I know), when you’re listening to people go on-and-on about women’s day, you’re probably gonna want to see if there’s a day for your group. Not to mention that men aren’t women, it’s going to be a bit hard to feel included on a day targeted towards specific groups.

[Liriena]

(Pssssst. It's because you're surrounded by toxic memes due to the misandry in the movement.)

Tbh, it's more an issue of personal experiences. Most of the men who I've personally seen and heard complain about the lack of an International Men's Day during International Women's Day are honest-to-goodness misogynists who all but sweat machismo and insecurity and are blatantly doing it out of spite to women rather than any sort of sincere concern for any of the men's issues you've brought up in our discussions. They're just being dicks.

Google still has never celebrated international mens day, as an immediate example.

You're complaining about grassroots awareness raising and ignoring that it's directly the result of institutional bias and misandry, and framing it as negative and evidence that their intentions are impure.

That's what progressivism has done to you and how you interact with people.

As I said above, it's down more to personal experience than any sort of political dogmatism on my part.

[Ostroeuropa]

(Pssssst. It's because you're surrounded by toxic memes due to the misandry in the movement.)

Tbh, it's more an issue of personal experiences. Most of the men who I've personally seen and heard complain about the lack of an International Men's Day during International Women's Day are honest-to-goodness misogynists who all but sweat machismo and insecurity and are blatantly doing it out of spite to women rather than any sort of sincere concern for any of the men's issues you've brought up in our discussions. They're just being dicks.

Google still has never celebrated international mens day, as an immediate example.

You're complaining about grassroots awareness raising and ignoring that it's directly the result of institutional bias and misandry, and framing it as negative and evidence that their intentions are impure.

That's what progressivism has done to you and how you interact with people.

As I said above, it's down more to personal experience than any sort of political dogmatism on my part.

You cannot use statistics on google spikes to argue your personal experiences being the reason. Moreover, the type of person you're describing is a seperate one from someone who googles to find out there is an international mens day. You also used this example in the context of arguing the lack of sincerity of people who ask for the type of things you listed.

[Liriena]

“White” :^)

(Image)

Goddammit.

That CFK pic in the background, tho

Your memes are out of date, dude. There's a new cat in town.

[Liriena]

Tbh, it's more an issue of personal experiences. Most of the men who I've personally seen and heard complain about the lack of an International Men's Day during International Women's Day are honest-to-goodness misogynists who all but sweat machismo and insecurity and are blatantly doing it out of spite to women rather than any sort of sincere concern for any of the men's issues you've brought up in our discussions. They're just being dicks.


As I said above, it's down more to personal experience than any sort of political dogmatism on my part.

You cannot use statistics on google spikes to argue your personal experiences being the reason. Moreover, the type of person you're describing is a seperate one from someone who googles to find out there is an international mens day. You also used this example in the context of arguing the lack of sincerity of people who ask for the type of things you listed.

Point taken.

[Computer Lab]

As someone who is on different sides of that equation for different parts of that statement, I don't see any real issue with anyone having parades if anyone can. A cis/het/white/male parade/history month is unlikely to get much support from the general populace, but anyone should feel free to try and set one up.

I agree. My problem isn't with the concepts in and of themselves. In isolation, they're fine. The problem is in their framing. For instance, interest for International men's Day, which is already a thing, spikes the most during International Women's Day, rather than International Men's Day itself. Pretty telling.

I think that's probably just a difference in PR. Women's Day is more widely known to begin with. I'm sure some of those people are engaging in whataboutisms, but I'm not too concerned.
In the grand scheme of things, that is so far from a real issue that I never think of it.

'Universalist platitudes' is a phrase you use when defining something off the top of your head?

I'm a social sciences student. My life is 80% reading stuff with pretentious vocabulary.

Ok, so what your saying is that 'white fragility' is when white people don't like being confronted about subtle or unobvious examples of racial inequalities?

In a clumsy nutshell that doesn't quite reflect my meaning... kinda.

I feel that to a not-insignificant extent. I'm a history student who focuses on colonialism and decolonization. Most of my material deals with slavery, genocides, and other atrocities. Makes people look at me weird when I try to relate something to my studies...

[Reblibre]

'Universalist platitudes' is a phrase you use when defining something off the top of your head?

I'm a social sciences student. My life is 80% reading stuff with pretentious vocabulary.

Ok, so what your saying is that 'white fragility' is when white people don't like being confronted about subtle or unobvious examples of racial inequalities?

In a clumsy nutshell that doesn't quite reflect my meaning... kinda.

Kinda? Ok, well, even if I do not have the articulation of a social sciences student I'll try my best to continue with my argument. If 'White Fragility' is when someone dismisses examples of less obvious racism because they are too sensitive about the implications then isn't the phrase 'white fragility' an example of the "more subtle, less visibly extreme forms of racism" that you mentioned?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Goddammit.

That CFK pic in the background, tho

Your memes are out of date, dude. There's a new cat in town.

Here we go, new and improved.

[Liriena]

I'm a social sciences student. My life is 80% reading stuff with pretentious vocabulary.


In a clumsy nutshell that doesn't quite reflect my meaning... kinda.

Kinda? Ok, well, even if I do not have the articulation of a social sciences student I'll try my best to continue with my argument. If 'White Fragility' is when someone dismisses examples of less obvious racism because they are too sensitive about the implications then isn't the phrase 'white fragility' an example of the "more subtle, less visibly extreme forms of racism" that you mentioned?

Explain.

[Liriena]

Your memes are out of date, dude. There's a new cat in town.

Here we go, new and improved.

[Reblibre]

In the words of Pres. Crawford
"Battling inequality with inequality only results in worse and claimed justified inequality to even out the, uh, inequality"

Treating Group A better than Group B because they were originally treated unjust will cause those who originally treated them unjust to see that since they get special treatment, their mistreatment is now equalled out and does not need to change.

Like a bloody revenge cycle. Hatfields and McCoys, Capulets and Montegues, Israelis and Palestinians (a war that started back when Jacob and Esau got into thier first wrestling match).

[The American Corporate Hegemony]

Is this a welcome choice to give to society to make them think or just another means of attacking the endangered species?

Endangered species?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Y'all.....
This was a social experiment, not something someone was actually doing to discriminate against white people! OP, you shoulda read the article before making this thread.

[The Rebel Alliances]

I would not pay the $12. I would probably just leave. This may be a social experiment but seeing as I am a white male who makes less than $25,000 a year I am not paying more money for 'supposedly' having a higher income by the benefit of being white.

I get that this is a social experiment, but I doubt it applies to me.

[Reblibre]

Kinda? Ok, well, even if I do not have the articulation of a social sciences student I'll try my best to continue with my argument. If 'White Fragility' is when someone dismisses examples of less obvious racism because they are too sensitive about the implications then isn't the phrase 'white fragility' an example of the "more subtle, less visibly extreme forms of racism" that you mentioned?

Explain.

Essentially you said that 'White Fragility' is when someone (specifically a white person) becomes dismissive of a usually less obvious example of racism normally because they simply don't want to deal with the big issues it implies. Since I and obviously many others feel that the term is racially demeaning then it is 'White Fragility' to use it and dismiss the whole issue since white fragility is to do just that.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I would not pay the $12. I would probably just leave. This may be a social experiment but seeing as I am a white male who makes less than $25,000 a year I am not paying more money for 'supposedly' having a higher income by the benefit of being white.

I get that this is a social experiment, but I doubt it applies to me.

True, it was based on the average monetary amount that Euro-American people in New Orleans make compared to Afro-Americans.
And that's not supposed, that's fact.
Was there a better way to do this? Yes. But that doesn't mean what Wey did was racist in intent. In fact, I don't see this as racist that much.