Right Wing Discussion Thread XI: It's Okay To Be Right

[United Muscovite Nations]

When did morality become "is a person harmed by this?"

What happened to virtue?

If I were the last person on Earth what then even IS morality?

Morality isn't based on other people, morality is the principle of what you ought to do.

[Genivaria]

If I were the last person on Earth what then even IS morality?

Morality isn't based on other people, morality is the principle of what you ought to do.

In regards to what?

[Albrenia]

Harming others is one aspect of judging if something is 'moral' or not in my eyes, but not the only. Others are if it is honest/truthful, if it prevents or salves harm, and so on.

Inherent virtue is something I don't really believe in, so what happened to it? Nothing.



Since I can't see any evidence of objective morality, subjective is the best we're going to get.

If morality is subjective, then it doesn't exist at all. If morality is subjective, it's just a social construct, it's basically nihilism for people who think that morality is a convenient construct.

Still, all evidence points to morality being subjective. As much as that may suck, believing otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Morality isn't based on other people, morality is the principle of what you ought to do.

In regards to what?

Everything.

[Genivaria]

Harming others is one aspect of judging if something is 'moral' or not in my eyes, but not the only. Others are if it is honest/truthful, if it prevents or salves harm, and so on.

Inherent virtue is something I don't really believe in, so what happened to it? Nothing.



Since I can't see any evidence of objective morality, subjective is the best we're going to get.

If morality is subjective, then it doesn't exist at all. If morality is subjective, it's just a social construct, it's basically nihilism for people who think that morality is a convenient construct.

In the same way that real laws don't actually exist? That government doesn't exist? That economies don't actually exist?
There are some things that are true BECAUSE we agree that they are true.

[Genivaria]

In regards to what?

Everything.

So is scratching my nose moral or immoral?

[United Muscovite Nations]

If morality is subjective, then it doesn't exist at all. If morality is subjective, it's just a social construct, it's basically nihilism for people who think that morality is a convenient construct.

Still, all evidence points to morality being subjective. As much as that may suck, believing otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

No, all evidence points to morality being not real.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Everything.

So is scratching my nose moral or immoral?

That's not the question you should ask, the question you should ask is "Ought I to scratch my nose?" Does scratching your nose help to fulfill your purpose as a human?

[Genivaria]

Still, all evidence points to morality being subjective. As much as that may suck, believing otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

No, all evidence points to morality being not real.

I don't know why you want to make that synonymous with subjective.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If morality is subjective, then it doesn't exist at all. If morality is subjective, it's just a social construct, it's basically nihilism for people who think that morality is a convenient construct.

In the same way that real laws don't actually exist? That government doesn't exist? That economies don't actually exist?
There are some things that are true BECAUSE we agree that they are true.

And morality isn't one of them. A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

[Genivaria]

So is scratching my nose moral or immoral?

That's not the question you should ask, the question you should ask is "Ought I to scratch my nose?" Does scratching your nose help to fulfill your purpose as a human?

I wasn't aware I had a single 'purpose', what is that pray tell?

[Genivaria]

In the same way that real laws don't actually exist? That government doesn't exist? That economies don't actually exist?
There are some things that are true BECAUSE we agree that they are true.

And morality isn't one of them. A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

And morality isn't one of them

Because you dislike that idea?

A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

[United Muscovite Nations]

And morality isn't one of them. A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

And morality isn't one of them

Because you dislike that idea?

A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

That's not the same thing as evil though.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's not the question you should ask, the question you should ask is "Ought I to scratch my nose?" Does scratching your nose help to fulfill your purpose as a human?

I wasn't aware I had a single 'purpose', what is that pray tell?

To acquire the Holy Spirit.

[Genivaria]

I wasn't aware I had a single 'purpose', what is that pray tell?

To acquire the Holy Spirit.

And you have evidence for this?

[Genivaria]

Because you dislike that idea?

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

That's not the same thing as evil though.

What are you defining evil to be?

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's not the same thing as evil though.

What are you defining evil to be?

It's self-defining.

[United Muscovite Nations]

To acquire the Holy Spirit.

And you have evidence for this?

There's no evidence for any moral assertion.

[Genivaria]

And you have evidence for this?

There's no evidence for any moral assertion.

.....so you're admitting that your position is at least as baseless as every other position?

[Republic of the Cristo]

And morality isn't one of them. A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

And morality isn't one of them

Because you dislike that idea?

A majority of people saying that murder is evil doesn't make it true.

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

Yeah, kind of like how some bigots believe Child Molesters should go to jail. Since evil is just subjective and there is no scientific way to prove what is and is not evil, who are we to say that these people should be out of society?

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Because you dislike that idea?

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

Yeah, kind of like how some bigots believe Child Molesters should go to jail. Since evil is just subjective and there is no scientific way to prove what is and is not evil, who are we to say that these people should be out of society?

Child molesters should be out of society as they cause suffering to the children they molest. There is no universal definition of evil, but we can make and improve our own definition of evil.

[Albrenia]

Because you dislike that idea?

It does however make the person who disagrees stuck in a prison cell.

Yeah, kind of like how some bigots believe Child Molesters should go to jail. Since evil is just subjective and there is no scientific way to prove what is and is not evil, who are we to say that these people should be out of society?

I think you might have missed the point of what was being said. Nobody is saying that those sorts of people shouldn't be punished, or what they do isn't wrong to us.

Methinks you are attacking a strawman.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Yeah, kind of like how some bigots believe Child Molesters should go to jail. Since evil is just subjective and there is no scientific way to prove what is and is not evil, who are we to say that these people should be out of society?

Child molesters should be out of society as they cause suffering to the children they molest. There is no universal definition of evil, but we can make and improve our own definition of evil.

Yeah and my usage of an iphone chokes kids in Chinese factories and poisons kids Peruvian mining towns. If you definition is simply based around harming others than that means a whoooooole lotta things need to get banned.

With that in mind, is there any objective way to improve subjective morality ( aside from just getting rid of it and turning Christian )?

[Republic of the Cristo]

Yeah, kind of like how some bigots believe Child Molesters should go to jail. Since evil is just subjective and there is no scientific way to prove what is and is not evil, who are we to say that these people should be out of society?

I think you might have missed the point of what was being said. Nobody is saying that those sorts of people shouldn't be punished, or what they do isn't wrong to us.

Methinks you are attacking a strawman.

There was a discussion up above of how we shouldn't use religion for our basis in what is good and evil and how to implement good because religion ( and in turn, morality ) can not be scientifically proven. I am pointing out how dangerous and truly horrifying such a world view is.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Child molesters should be out of society as they cause suffering to the children they molest. There is no universal definition of evil, but we can make and improve our own definition of evil.

Yeah and my usage of an iphone chokes kids in Chinese factories and poisons kids Peruvian mining towns. If you definition is simply based around harming others than that means a whoooooole lotta things need to get banned.

With that in mind, is there any objective way to improve subjective morality ( aside from just getting rid of it and turning Christian )?

1. I have an iPhone myself, but I agree that they should be made more ethically

2. There's no "objective" way to improve subjective morality. We can improve it from learning from its failures, such as how unregulated capitalism led to immense income inequality in the industrial revolution.

Also, the Bible's depiction of God in my mind makes him an immoral, oppressive bastard.