Right Wing Discussion Thread XI: It's Okay To Be Right

[Senkaku]

North Korea can't even feed itself and will inevitably collapse within the next 30 years. So North Korea is fucked, invasion or not.

People said this 30 years ago, too, and it hasn't happened yet.

Frankly, it's not really in our interest for the regime to collapse. Yes, it would be nice if it could somehow fall neatly and we could end the horrific oppression of millions and bring the leaders in Pyongyang to justice, but realistically all we'd end up with would be stray nuclear bombs, crises in China and the South, and possibly a lot of dead Americans. As things stand, at least Kim has fairly rational objectives- stay alive.

[United Muscovite Nations]

North Korea can't even feed itself and will inevitably collapse within the next 30 years. So North Korea is fucked, invasion or not.

People said this 30 years ago, too, and it hasn't happened yet.

Frankly, it's not really in our interest for the regime to collapse. Yes, it would be nice if it could somehow fall neatly and we could end the horrific oppression of millions and bring the leaders in Pyongyang to justice, but realistically all we'd end up with would be stray nuclear bombs, crises in China and the South, and possibly a lot of dead Americans. As things stand, at least Kim has fairly rational objectives- stay alive.

Plus there would be like 10 million small arms, millions of tons of munitions, etc. North Korea would be worse than Iraq even if the regime just collapsed overnight without a war.

[The East Marches II]

People said this 30 years ago, too, and it hasn't happened yet.

Frankly, it's not really in our interest for the regime to collapse. Yes, it would be nice if it could somehow fall neatly and we could end the horrific oppression of millions and bring the leaders in Pyongyang to justice, but realistically all we'd end up with would be stray nuclear bombs, crises in China and the South, and possibly a lot of dead Americans. As things stand, at least Kim has fairly rational objectives- stay alive.

Plus there would be like 10 million small arms, millions of tons of munitions, etc. North Korea would be worse than Iraq even if the regime just collapsed overnight without a war.

This tbh, we'd basically have to wipe them out.

[The East Marches II]

I wonder if somebody has studied the effects of arms prices when these places either get invaded or take a shit and collapse.

[Questers]

The DPRK should be treated like an equal country. It's only a pariah state because it attempts to amass weapons... which is a natural response to any country non-US aligned which is threatened by the US.

Treat the DPRK like every other country. Whether it becomes less crazy is irrelevant.

[Canstan II]

The reason why NK is so paranoid are because of the hawks that wish to actually invade NK. What's worse is that today's hawks are rarely even the capable kind, usually wrapped in a shroud of moralist horseshit that are unwilling to do the hard things that are sometimes necessary. TFW no hawks who are willing to implement neo-Phoenix Programs.

[Republican Corentia]

I don't like how freedom of movement is being judged based on the economic utility of a migrant. How come all these ""models"" are focused around how we can interpret them as dollar signs, or just completely irrational? Commodification of immigrants is how we get things like America's terrible migrant worker conditions.

Freedom of movement is no right. Besides, irrational thinking is seriously believing that every is of equal value or that each person doesn't have benefits/drawbacks that will occur when they come. Infact, it is insanity as Vanguard once out it.

I agree completely with what you're saying, I was merely pointing out that the current attitude we have towards immigrants tends to be strictly through an economic lens and all other ways are deemed irrational, whether that view be founded on equality or not. For the record my view isn't based on equality whatsoever. My view is that the commodification of people is unhealthy and exploitative, and the commodification of immigrants (most of whom tend to lean on the poorer side in many cases with the first world) is one of the most concerning problems we can look at when dealing with exploitative relations. The closely related issue to this is of course sweatshop labor in the third world. How do we ferment healthy immigration and thereby healthy societies, and is the path to that partly by ending exploitative behaviors that give lawmakers incentives to make sure this labor stays cheap?

[Aillyria]

The DPRK should be treated like an equal country. It's only a pariah state because it attempts to amass weapons... which is a natural response to any country non-US aligned which is threatened by the US.

Treat the DPRK like every other country. Whether it becomes less crazy is irrelevant.

They aren't our equals, though. They're inferior in about every conceivable manner.

[Benuty]

The DPRK should be treated like an equal country. It's only a pariah state because it attempts to amass weapons... which is a natural response to any country non-US aligned which is threatened by the US.

Treat the DPRK like every other country. Whether it becomes less crazy is irrelevant.

They aren't our equals, though. They're inferior in about every conceivable manner.

For once I am in agreement with you here, and as for craziness it somewhat does matter. When Gaddafi camped in a tent on someone's property and had an all-female squad of bodyguards it was an acceptable crazy because of how well Libya was economically at the time before that "revolution" of theirs turned them into the slave selling shithole they are now. With North Korea, on the other hand, the craziness is a bit different, and even the Chinese government tires of them occasionally, and if it weren't for the potential flood of refugees the PRC might not be propping them up.

[Bienenhalde]

I imagine the principle argument against the conflict would be economic, as at best a massive artillery barrage against SK would make an extraordinary economic vacuum and that's a best case outcome. Technically the US could get through such a conflict with fairly minimal US losses. SK losses being an entirely different matter.

Wouldn't the high casualty risk would be worse than an economic consequences? Given the risk of Mutually Assured Destruction from nuclear weapons, it is probably better at this point just to make peace with North Korea.

[Canstan II]

I imagine the principle argument against the conflict would be economic, as at best a massive artillery barrage against SK would make an extraordinary economic vacuum and that's a best case outcome. Technically the US could get through such a conflict with fairly minimal US losses. SK losses being an entirely different matter.

Wouldn't the high casualty risk would be worse than an economic consequences? Given the risk of Mutually Assured Destruction from nuclear weapons, it is probably better at this point just to make peace with North Korea.

MAD doesn't really apply to USA vs NK.

[Bienenhalde]

Wouldn't the high casualty risk would be worse than an economic consequences? Given the risk of Mutually Assured Destruction from nuclear weapons, it is probably better at this point just to make peace with North Korea.

MAD doesn't really apply to USA vs NK.

Well, I suppose they do not have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire United States, but they could still end up killing very many civilians.

[Grand Britannia]

I don't like how freedom of movement is being judged based on the economic utility of a migrant. How come all these ""models"" are focused around how we can interpret them as dollar signs, or just completely irrational? Commodification of immigrants is how we get things like America's terrible migrant worker conditions.

Because why would I want more freeloaders and deadweight in the country when we already have to deal with it?

[United Muscovite Nations]

stop laying in bed
t. margus aurelius

[Darussalam]

I don't like how freedom of movement is being judged based on the economic utility of a migrant. How come all these ""models"" are focused around how we can interpret them as dollar signs, or just completely irrational? Commodification of immigrants is how we get things like America's terrible migrant worker conditions.

Because why would I want more freeloaders and deadweight in the country when we already have to deal with it?

Without welfare state and labor regulations that necessitate it "more immigrants" means overall net benefit to the West because of comparative advantage. Even with it, provided you're not already keeping many natives out of work.

There is a problem regarding some sort of immigrants exerting negative externalities on good institutions - but the ideal solution is Singapore-style arrangements instead of closed borders (I ideally prefer Singapore-style arrangements to apply for natives too, but nativists tend to not care much about their tribe's deadweights at the expense of others so)

[Aillyria]

They aren't our equals, though. They're inferior in about every conceivable manner.

For once I am in agreement with you here, and as for craziness it somewhat does matter. When Gaddafi camped in a tent on someone's property and had an all-female squad of bodyguards it was an acceptable crazy because of how well Libya was economically at the time before that "revolution" of theirs turned them into the slave selling shithole they are now. With North Korea, on the other hand, the craziness is a bit different, and even the Chinese government tires of them occasionally, and if it weren't for the potential flood of refugees the PRC might not be propping them up.

Well, I may be socialist, a revolutionary one at that, but nationalism is a strongly held belief of mine.

Basically. I mean, if you're gonna be a dictator, at least make sure your people can live decently. North Korea has nothing going for it, it's a huge shit stain on Korean history.

[Senkaku]

The DPRK should be treated like an equal country.

How about nah

It's only a pariah state because it attempts to amass weapons... which is a natural response to any country non-US aligned which is threatened by the US.

And it's threatened by the US because it abuses, oppresses, and impoverishes its people on par with the worst of them throughout history. The North Korean is hardly the victim here- the North Korean people are.

Treat the DPRK like every other country. Whether it becomes less crazy is irrelevant.

No, it's quite relevant- if you're relaxing sanctions and treating them normally and they continue acting crazy, then you're giving them something for nothing, and they're going to try and hurt you with it.

[Bienenhalde]

What do you think the main long term goal of the North Korean regime is by now? Do you think they are more concerned with spreading communism internationally or the national reunification of the Korean peninsula?

[Aillyria]

What do you think the main long term goal of the North Korean regime is by now? Do you think they are more concerned with spreading communism internationally or the national reunification of the Korean peninsula?

I'd say neither, it's probably just stroking Kim Jong-Un's ego and feeding his gluttony...all while his people starve of course.

[Bienenhalde]

I'd say neither, it's probably just stroking Kim Jong-Un's ego and fedding his gluttony...all while his people starve of course.

Even if the Kim family only cares about themselves, I would think that at least their subordinates actually believe in some kind of ideology, even if it is only due to indoctrination.

[The East Marches II]

What do you think the main long term goal of the North Korean regime is by now? Do you think they are more concerned with spreading communism internationally or the national reunification of the Korean peninsula?

Survival, thats it at this point.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What do you think the main long term goal of the North Korean regime is by now? Do you think they are more concerned with spreading communism internationally or the national reunification of the Korean peninsula?

Survival, thats it at this point.

This, the North Koreans know they won't win a war, they're building up their military and nuclear program because they're scared they'll go the way of Saddam if they don't build up while they have the chance when the US has its guard down from war weariness.

[Questers]

Yanquis trying to second-guess the DPRK is a great spectator sport.

[Questers]

What do you think the main long term goal of the North Korean regime is by now? Do you think they are more concerned with spreading communism internationally or the national reunification of the Korean peninsula?

I'd say neither, it's probably just stroking Kim Jong-Un's ego and feeding his gluttony...all while his people starve of course.

Yeah that's right, the basis of the state must be the personal gluttony of the dictator. That sounds plausible.

[The East Marches II]

Yanquis trying to second-guess the DPRK is a great spectator sport.