Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

[Aillyria]

The attempt to conceive of the national populations of Europe as a common demos is a conceptually federalising move which inherently tries to transcend older models of cooperation between independent national leaders and their appointees. It's an attempt to construct a rival base of legitimacy and there's an inbuilt momentum therein towards the expansion of the Union's power and the imposition of policy on national populations who disagree.

It's natural that if you don't accept federalism and ever closer union that you'd want to limit the power of the European Parliament. Well, if you're a soft-eurosceptic who doesn't want to leave entirely, that is...

Your point being?

The EU is trying to destroy European national cultures and build a fake "European" identity.

[Cekoviu]

Your point being?

The EU is trying to destroy European national cultures and build a fake "European" identity.

Could you at least try to form a plausible reason for opposing the EU? You've got plenty of fodder: globalism, neoliberalism, etc., but you chose the conspiracy theory route?

[Pilarcraft]

The EU is trying to destroy European national cultures and build a fake "European" identity.

Could you at least try to form a plausible reason for opposing the EU? You've got plenty of fodder: globalism, neoliberalism, etc., but you chose the conspiracy theory route?

Well you can't say the "try to promote the European identity" angle is false, per se. just that it's neither fake nor new.

[Ostroeuropa]

Could you at least try to form a plausible reason for opposing the EU? You've got plenty of fodder: globalism, neoliberalism, etc., but you chose the conspiracy theory route?

Well you can't say the "try to promote the European identity" angle is false, per se. just that it's neither fake nor new.

This.
European identity and opposition to Nationalism has been the pursuit of every major power in European history, under different names and concepts, except perhaps the British and Napoleonic France. It isn't so much an aspect of the EU, as an aspect of authorities seeking to control an extremely diverse populace with conflicting values and interests.

I don't doubt that a Eurasian empire would act similarly and seek to foster Eurasian identity.

If the EU were smaller, or limited to similar cultures (Say, Germany, the Scandinavias, Austria) it would not be a factor, and instead some other supranationalism would be pursued. (Germanicism, in the case of the given example.)

Arguably the trend stems from Rome (Which is highly prevalent in appeals to common european identity, as it is a piece of history much of europe shares) and the Holy Roman Empire, and later attempts by French Monarchs to establish the World Monarchy, and also Austrian attempts ( Austriae est imperare orbi universo / "It is Austria's destiny to rule the whole world" ) through the HRE and diplomatic wrangling.

Finally there was the Kaiser and German Empires allusions to it that eventually saw it arise in Naziism and Aryan mythology style Germanicism.
(Anglo-saxons, Franks, Suebi, Visigoth, Lombard, German, Norse, Dutch, and dependent on their mood at the time "The Rus were maybe vikings!", thereby laying claim to Europe and asserting European identity to be the same thing as Germanicism by claiming the Germanic migrations were sufficiently impactful as to make in that order, Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany+Austria, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and Maybe Russia I Guess, German nations.)

The EU is merely the latest attempt, resulting from aspirations to be a superpower on the continent of Europe, which necessitates some form of Europeanism be pursued.

The history of Europe is absolutely littered with examples of the foremost power in Europe laying claim to Europe as a whole and insisting on European identity. As I said, I can think of only two exceptions, the British Empire and Napoleonic France.
The Soviets too, I suppose, though they held an even larger supranationalist aspiration of laying claim to all peoples and nations.

It's also notable that national identities of Europe are informed and influenced in many ways by the various nations reactions to the foremost power and its attempts to unite europe.

If there is a European identity, it is that we all seek a united Europe (Except the British and France on a good day), but one united under OUR principles and practices. The case for a united Europe in identity terms is there, as multiple powers on the continent have continuously tried to pull it off.

The EU represents, nominally, an attempt to unify those varying perspectives on what a united Europe looks like. But it didn't start the trend.

it's more of a;
"Let's get the heirs of the Habsburgs, Borbons, Von Preussens, Trastimaras, and Julii around a table and negotiate what a united europe looks like. Because we all apparently want one, and all apparently oppose it when its tried by anyone else, so let's harmonize our visions of what a united europe looks like to eliminate that opposition."

In identity terms, the case for Britain being "With europe but not of it" is that it has never sought a united europe even when the foremost power, and has been actively and hysterically opposed to each attempt to bring one about, arguably leading the charge for many of the resistances to the attempt. it, unlike europe, does not and has not shared the ambition, regardless of the circumstances and nature of the unification.

[Cekoviu]

Could you at least try to form a plausible reason for opposing the EU? You've got plenty of fodder: globalism, neoliberalism, etc., but you chose the conspiracy theory route?

Well you can't say the "try to promote the European identity" angle is false, per se. just that it's neither fake nor new.

It is, though. The EU has nothing to do with identity, it's a political and economic alliance. Saying that it is actively trying to "destroy European national cultures" is even less accurate than that.

[Pilarcraft]

Well you can't say the "try to promote the European identity" angle is false, per se. just that it's neither fake nor new.

It is, though. The EU has nothing to do with identity, it's a political and economic alliance. Saying that it is actively trying to "destroy European national cultures" is even less accurate than that.

to be fair, a Federalized Europe is the rational end-game of the European Union. It isn't likely to survive as it is for much longer. Every Economic/political union dies at some point. And a Federalized Europe will need a point of union. "United in Diversity" might sound a cool motto, but in practice, you need some common ground to unite people around.

[Cekoviu]

It is, though. The EU has nothing to do with identity, it's a political and economic alliance. Saying that it is actively trying to "destroy European national cultures" is even less accurate than that.

to be fair, a Federalized Europe is the rational end-game of the European Union. It isn't likely to survive as it is for much longer. Every Economic/political union dies at some point. And a Federalized Europe will need a point of union. "United in Diversity" might sound a cool motto, but in practice, you need some common ground to unite people around.

That's a whole different issue and not really relevant to what the EU is now. An actual united Europe in the vein of the US would be nigh impossible unless it were organized as a confederation, and I prefer not to dwell on unrealistic hypotheticals.

[Jackania yugo]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

[Liriena]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

No.

[Jackania yugo]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

No.

Why no?

[Pilarcraft]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

a- not really relevant. nor really related to the topic at hand. at least quote what you're refering to.
b- Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

[MERIZoC]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

Wow, this is genius. Nobody has ever thought of this before. This is groundbreaking political science research, and surely not something that would get you laughed out of any serious political discussion.

[Jackania yugo]

Okay then, what do you say the regressive left stands for?

[Pilarcraft]

So...in modern politics...

Nazis who--------------------------------All the moderate stuff----------------------------------Actual Nazis.
claim
they're not
Nazi's and
try and push
that "fact"
further by
punching
Nazi's yet
they are just
inverted Nazis.

Wow, this is genius. Nobody has ever thought of this before. This is groundbreaking political science research, and surely not something that would get you laughed out of any serious political discussion.

They unironically use "regressive left".
I don't really know what else you expected.

[Jackania yugo]

Wow, this is genius. Nobody has ever thought of this before. This is groundbreaking political science research, and surely not something that would get you laughed out of any serious political discussion.

They unironically use "regressive left".
I don't really know what else you expected.

What's wrong with me?

[West Leas Oros]

I'm gonna ask the question again

We got Corbyn, at least, who is proposing the nationalization of several utilities.

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

[Mujahidah]

We got Corbyn, at least, who is proposing the nationalization of several utilities.

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

Because Corbyn, for all his positives, is ultimately a twat.

[Jackania yugo]

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

Because Corbyn, for all his positives, is ultimately a twat.

Everyone in British politics is a lying twat...except Boris Johnson.

The entire world is full of twats.

[MERIZoC]

Okay then, what do you say the regressive left stands for?

It's nothing more than a buzzword.

[MERIZoC]

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

Because Corbyn, for all his positives, is ultimately a twat.

whys that

[Pilarcraft]

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

Because Corbyn, for all his positives, is ultimately a twat.

Yeah but he's a politician. Being a twat is kinda in the job description lol

[Tule]

We got Corbyn, at least, who is proposing the nationalization of several utilities.

We need more Corbyn. Why can't we have a Corbynocracy?

He's spineless and a disgrace, he's bending over for Russia and offering them lube.

A leader who will not defend his people is no leader at all.

[Jackania yugo]

Okay then, what do you say the regressive left stands for?

It's nothing more than a buzzword.

They what do we call those sorts of people?

[West Leas Oros]

let me fix this.
So...in modern politics...

Dirty Gommies--------------------------------Centrists who aren't dogmatic but ---------------------------------Nazis.
everyone accuses them of being enemy sympathizers

and then on the other hand

Anyone who isn't a--------------------------------People who realize why the state exists ---------------------------------Dun Tred on mee.
Dedicated, Merciless anarchist is a Nazi! and who have an understanding of the social contract

[Pilarcraft]

let me fix this.
So...in modern politics...

Dirty Gommies--------------------------------Centrists who aren't dogmatic but ---------------------------------Nazis.
everyone accuses them of being enemy sympathizers

and then on the other hand

Anyone who isn't a--------------------------------People who realize why the state exists ---------------------------------Dun Tred on mee.
Dedicated, Merciless anarchist is a Nazi! and who have an understanding of the social contract

b- Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
(Also, why not use the table tag? it makes understanding that mess easier)