Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

[Aillyria]

I think whether they're capitalist or not is irrelevant, in a revolutionary setting. If you move to impede the revolution, be you capitalist or socialist...you get death penalty.

How does that make you any different from fascists then? Do you honestly believe that killing the opposition is for a noble cause? Or do you acknowledge that you would just do it for the sake of gaining and maintaining power?

I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but your assuming I care about being different from fascists in this regard. I follow the norion that one should learn from the successful tactics of past regimes, even if they are ideological foes. And it happens to be that many past regimes have eliminated their opponents and that increased their hold on their respective society.

Gaining and maintaining power is the goal of a revolutionary movement, and the only way to eradicate the culture of the previous paradigm and replace it with your own.

[Ostroeuropa]

You want sadistic creativity?

Post-revolution we force march the journalists into a central location and strip them naked, forcing them into a crowd and surrounding them.

Then we just start hurling vitriolic insults and abuse and outright lies at them and don't let them leave. We can cycle out people so it takes days.

When the first one drops dead of exhaustion, we apprehend the rest and incarcerate them, and spend years gaslighting them while cycling through the list of them to force surgery on them that will implant a receiver into them schizophrenic style.

Before release they are interviewed by someone who just gaslights them some more and repeats a bunch of bullshit and interrogates them over the lies they told, telling them they have three options:

Leave the country (But we tell them we'll send at least three agents to the country they choose at some point in the future to lie and gaslight to them in an extreme way.)
Be lied to forever by locals.
Say they want to die, then we'll kill them.

Whenever they try to say they want one of the first two we just outright ignore them and continue with the interrogation, lies, and gaslighting, if it takes more than an hour, they go back to prison where we're constantly gaslighting them and fucking with them, and telling them lies.

When they finally beg for death, we let them go, but without any passport, after branding them on the forehead. If they escape, they escape, but that line about "Our agents will at some point turn up in your new home to fuck with you" will leave them forever paranoid.

The brand means NOBODY will tell them the truth, ever again, in any circumstance, and will actively seek to fuck with them and gaslight them about every situation they find themselves in, while the radio receiver implanted in them constantly lies and gaslights them too.

If foreign nations complain we respond with;
"Are you saying liars should be punished with withholding essential goods or with physical and violent force? That's interesting. Bare in mind we have many liars in our custody before you answer."

You know nothing about fucked up and evil ironic punishments until you've heard voices mate.

I prefer the "skin the enemy and hang their flesh like curtains from trees" style brutality that sends a gruesome message and makes an example of enemies of the state.

That, and skull piles. Pol Pot aesthetic FTW.

I mean, fascists regimes are pretty transparent about how they are totalitarian states and will kill all who stand in their way.

DCR, do you honestly believe that killing political opponents is some noble act?

Not noble, but certainly convenient and useful.

What good is setting an example unless you manage to chill people to their core by making them question the boundaries of suffering? You offer knowns. The true test of authoritarian cruelty is unknowns.

For people to not be sure of just how awful it will be. To hear new things each week that transcend their previous assumed maximum and terrify them as to what next weeks will be.

People acclimitize, and eventually, "So I get skinned, big deal" becomes the response they settle on when it comes to fighting for their liberty, that's just how we are.

In terms of authoritarian torture and punishment, it is an arms race against their acclimatization. The journalist example I provided also has the benefit of collective participation, thus binding them to the regime through atrocity they participate in.

If you're going to go for it, ideally you need a whole department dedicated to making each week worse than the last for rebels and detractors.

Lazy shit like helicopter memes gets overcome. It is only through constant terror that you can hope to have these tactics work, and constant terror requires escalation. Room 101 is this, but personalized to such an extent that a regime likely couldn't actually attain that level of personal hell, but is ultimately the goal.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I can certainly see that. You, for example, seem quite reactionary.

Revolutionary, not reactionary. I want to progress into an international communist society, not return to the past.

[Norstal]

What about childhood trauma? Or even trauma from adulthood? What about actual psychopaths, whose brains work differently?

I am not a criminologist, and I do not like making concrete plans for a future communist society. Marx, for instance, avoided too much specificity. Those issues can be worked out in the future.

This always amuses me. Anarchists and communists want to uproot my entire life by changing the entirety of how society works but they can't explain why, how, or what's going to happen.

Yeah okay, that's real convincing.

[Rostavykhan]

I am a communist. Most communists I know agree with me on that issue.

They agree that capitalists should be murdered by the state? That seems excessive and a bit stupid, and more than a little concerning.

I don't disagree with him on this one.

Destruction of the Capitalist system and its supporters by any means necessary is one of the biggest selling points of Socialism to me.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

What would the capitalists you seek to imprison be charged with. What would the name of the charge be?

I have never given the subject any thought. How does the name matter?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

They agree that capitalists should be murdered by the state? That seems excessive and a bit stupid, and more than a little concerning.

I don't disagree with him on this one.

Destruction of the Capitalist system and its supporters by any means necessary is one of the biggest selling points of Socialism to me.

"By any means necessary"

TRIGGERED

[Ardoki]

How does that make you any different from fascists then? Do you honestly believe that killing the opposition is for a noble cause? Or do you acknowledge that you would just do it for the sake of gaining and maintaining power?

I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but your assuming I care about being different from fascists in this regard. I follow the norion that one should learn from the successful tactics of past regimes, even if they are ideological foes. And it happens to be that many past regimes have eliminated their opponents and that increased their hold on their respective society.

Gaining and maintaining power is the goal of a revolutionary movement, and the only way to eradicate the culture of the previous paradigm and replace it with your own.

But you do acknowledge that you believe in gaining and maintaining power for its own sake?

When you seize control with violence, you are going to have to continue using violence (implicit and explicit) to survive. With all that killing you would have made a lot of enemies, from relatives or friends you killed or just people who witnessed your brutality and wish to bring your regime down (either out of some goal of liberation, or perhaps they just see your regime as a threat and want to bring you down before you kill them).

[Bakery Hill]

They agree that capitalists should be murdered by the state? That seems excessive and a bit stupid, and more than a little concerning.

I don't disagree with him on this one.

Destruction of the Capitalist system and its supporters by any means necessary is one of the biggest selling points of Socialism to me.

What do you want most? The politics of liberation or the politics of revenge? Because one can often come at the expense of the other.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That doesn't refute what they said.

You can't refute an entire world view with a few comments. People are either communists, progressives, or something else.

[Geneviev]

They agree that capitalists should be murdered by the state? That seems excessive and a bit stupid, and more than a little concerning.

I don't disagree with him on this one.

Destruction of the Capitalist system and its supporters by any means necessary is one of the biggest selling points of Socialism to me.

Killing people for what they think? Sounds familiar to me. Where from? I'm German. This sounds like something Hitler would have said. By any means necessary. Ach du meine Nase, does no one see the parallel?

I'm not calling anyone Hitler, but this all sounds sickeningly familiar.

[Ardoki]

What would the capitalists you seek to imprison be charged with. What would the name of the charge be?

I have never given the subject any thought. How does the name matter?

Eh, so you have no idea about how your little revolution would work? Do you just intend to wing it?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What would the capitalists you seek to imprison be charged with. What would the name of the charge be?

I have never given the subject any thought. How does the name matter?

It matters quite a lot. You need clear labels for crime in order safeguard justice and protect the innocent. You don't put people on trial for being bad people, you put people on trial for tangible transgression. To do anything else is an express flight to despotism.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

If someone is so damaged they would commit murder or some other crime, society has failed them in a way. If the offence is serious enough, they may have to be imprisoned for life but I don't think we should judge or be cruel towards them. They are people too.

So in a way, everyone is a victim.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that murderers or capitalists convicted of white collar crimes shouldn't be executed. Obviously, anyone who would commit a murder is deeply troubled. That doesn't excuse the murder. The murder's victim is still dead.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That doesn't make that statement a fact.

Most 9/11 'truthers' believe 9/11 was a hoax. That doesn't mean 9/11 was a hoax.

I never claimed it as a fact. It is my perspective as a communist.

[Ardoki]

I used to be very left-leaning. But I have moderated a lot and now I'm a social democrat (a left-leaning social democrat though, like the current Labour Party under Corbyn). I'm now opposed to political extremism on both sides, this comment thread is quite disturbing.

[Geneviev]

I used to be very left-leaning. But I have moderated a lot and now I'm a social democrat (a left-leaning social democrat though, like the current Labour Party under Corbyn). I'm now opposed to political extremism on both sides, this comment thread is quite disturbing.

Yes, yes. It is getting disturbing, is it not?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

This always amuses me. Anarchists and communists want to uproot my entire life by changing the entirety of how society works but they can't explain why, how, or what's going to happen.

Yeah okay, that's real convincing.

I am not a prophet.

[Ardoki]

If someone is so damaged they would commit murder or some other crime, society has failed them in a way. If the offence is serious enough, they may have to be imprisoned for life but I don't think we should judge or be cruel towards them. They are people too.

So in a way, everyone is a victim.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that murderers or capitalists convicted of white collar crimes shouldn't be executed. Obviously, anyone who would commit a murder is deeply troubled. That doesn't excuse the murder. The murder's victim is still dead.

If a killer is caught, killing them won't bring the victim back to life.

[Norstal]

That doesn't make that statement a fact.

Most 9/11 'truthers' believe 9/11 was a hoax. That doesn't mean 9/11 was a hoax.

I never claimed it as a fact. It is my perspective as a communist.

You're a critical realist huh?

How'd you managed to lump "most communists" when there's about 1 billion communists over there in that country called China who disagrees with you?

Well I'll give you that they used to agree with you, but I think they learned their lessons.

[Aillyria]

I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but your assuming I care about being different from fascists in this regard. I follow the norion that one should learn from the successful tactics of past regimes, even if they are ideological foes. And it happens to be that many past regimes have eliminated their opponents and that increased their hold on their respective society.

Gaining and maintaining power is the goal of a revolutionary movement, and the only way to eradicate the culture of the previous paradigm and replace it with your own.

But you do acknowledge that you believe in gaining and maintaining power for its own sake?

When you seize control with violence, you are going to have to continue using violence (implicit and explicit) to survive. With all that killing you would have made a lot of enemies, from relatives or friends you killed or just people who witnessed your brutality and wish to bring your regime down (either out of some goal of liberation, or perhaps they just see your regime as a threat and want to bring you down before you kill them).

That's not power for power's sake a la 1984.

You, being a noob to this thread, don't understand that I consider violence a necessary aspect of both revolution and society itself. A movement seeking to change society must do so violently, and once it gains power must suppress (through violence) opposed groups, as well as discredit their views.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Eh, so you have no idea about how your little revolution would work? Do you just intend to wing it?

I have no idea of whether there will even be a revolution. We could blow up the world tomorrow. There are no guarantees in communism.

[Norstal]

This always amuses me. Anarchists and communists want to uproot my entire life by changing the entirety of how society works but they can't explain why, how, or what's going to happen.

Yeah okay, that's real convincing.

I am not a prophet.

Never asked to be a prophet. Here in the good ol' USA, you can study hard in high school, go to a good community college, and land yourself a job. Worst case is it takes a few months for you to get one. Of course there are exceptions, but we can certainly improve our welfare system to cover those exceptions.

But you're telling me that under your system, you're gonna replace it with...what? Hope and wishes and promises? Sprinkled with mass killing too.

[Ardoki]

But you do acknowledge that you believe in gaining and maintaining power for its own sake?

When you seize control with violence, you are going to have to continue using violence (implicit and explicit) to survive. With all that killing you would have made a lot of enemies, from relatives or friends you killed or just people who witnessed your brutality and wish to bring your regime down (either out of some goal of liberation, or perhaps they just see your regime as a threat and want to bring you down before you kill them).

That's not power for power's sake a la 1984.

You, being a noob to this thread, don't understand that I consider violence a necessary aspect of both revolution and society itself. A movement seeking to change society must do so violently, and once it gains power must suppress (through violence) opposed groups, as well as discredit their views.

You, being a noob to this thread, don't understand that I have posted in the left-wing discussion threads long before your nation even existed.

[Aillyria]

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that murderers or capitalists convicted of white collar crimes shouldn't be executed. Obviously, anyone who would commit a murder is deeply troubled. That doesn't excuse the murder. The murder's victim is still dead.

If a killer is caught, killing them won't bring the victim back to life.

It stops them from killing anymore, though. You can't kill if you're dead.