Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Erm no, your accusation of me making excuses is an attempt to delegitimize my stance against mass murdering ideologies of destruction that only cause death and destruction in every country and never ends in prosperity-like say communism, fascism, or naziism, white supremacy, etc.. We should only ostracize ideologies that cause genocide, destruction, mass death, oppresses the majority of the populace, takes away democracy, etc.

Again, I couldn't care less what you believe about Luxemburgism, libertarian communism, or Antifa (which is widely accepted by Jewish libertarian communists). Fortunately, I have my own agency. You are still trying to make excuses for your hypocrisy.

[Kubra]

Okay, now you see the problem, and you are trying to make excuses. So be it. At least you realize what you did.

Erm no, your accusation of me making excuses is an attempt to delegitimize my stance against mass murdering ideologies of destruction that only cause death and destruction in every country and never ends in prosperity-like say communism, fascism, or naziism, white supremacy, etc.. We should only ostracize ideologies that cause genocide, destruction, mass death, oppresses the majority of the populace, takes away democracy, etc.

By the way, I am not a Stalinist, a Marxist-Leninist, a nazi, or a fascist. I am a libertarian Marxist, a Luxemburgist, and (like many, most, or perhaps all Jewish libertarian communists) Antifa.

>Antifa

Look I'm staunchly Anti Fascist but Antifa is a piece of shit organization. They too should be ostracized for their violence.

Also, Marxism is inherently oppressive and does not reward people according to merit.

Is this a defense of capitalism?
Erm not exactly, I'm far from a Laissez-Faire or other right wing economic ideological groups.
But as much as I dislike those groups from caring little about social equality, I hate marxism for oppressing everyone equally.
It's never worked, and never will work. There's a reason most legitimate economists discredit marxism, it's not just a big bullshit conspiracy, it's being realistic.
You need to get your head out of your ass, start thinking realistically here, and think up alternative solutions that do not risk mass death and destruction-intentionally or not-and can be tolerated by the left and right, while not being seen by both as being too mediocre like centrism is seen.

Now I'd be being more polite here and not attacking your marxism out of respect, but you started some bullshit over me simply reiterating the dangers and horrors of what communism and naziism have always resulted in and are destined to result in, and that both are destined to result in destruction. Horseshoe theory is about statism, and how that is inherently destructive, murderous, oppressive, and tyrannical, due to human nature and the nature of having everything controlled by the government. I'm not speaking as someone against nationalized healthcare, or regulated markets, I just realize that the more extreme you go, the more government controls everything, the worse the society will be even with the government's best efforts. There comes a threshold when you give the government too] much power and it cannot handle that without becoming ineffective, failing, or becoming oppressive, because that's the nature of centralization of power, whether in an individual or group. This is why we have free markets, to decentralize things to a degree, so that if the government is going through a crisis, we can still function well.
Not to mention, Marxism does not reward merit. That provides a lack of economic incentive to improve, which you can see in many communist states across the globe, from Russia to China-even though China is more Fascist than Commie, but that's a whole different debate dealing with nationalism, leftist rhetoric being used also by fascists present and historically, and the Chinese regime acting less socialist and more pure statist nationalism and fanatical devotion to the country-. Marxism in every variant is inherently oppressive due to human nature and the lack of encouraging innovation with a rewards system which has been shows to consistently push people to innovate, and lack of innovation means stagnation, both economically, and tech wise, resulting in it potentially getting a lot better at first, but it being simply a temporary boost as the stagnation and reality sets in.
You can alter ideologies like Fascism all you want, you can't get rid of some fundamental issues with the system.

Communism is thus inherently destructive physically, socially, and economically, and it's radical push for equality at all costs creates destruction due to it's policies, and only a national dictator would be able to push hard for a unified central coherent message that will propel then country forward, and it may require coercion, violence, and pushing people to their breaking point, which will cause many deaths.
And again, the dictator leads to the issue of centralization of power, thus completing what I call the "Problem loop" with Communism, and even Naziism as well as Fascism, but for altered but still similar reasons.

Despite this, I am not opposed to economic leftist policies and social ones, however radicalization does result in extremism and violence and what proctopeo said, because contextually for those ideologies ton push forward changes they want or to coerce people into voting for them, it requires aggressive and often violent measures, and to achieve even goals unrelated to voter support, due to the systems they operate, they need to pursue actions they believe is right, with their rhetoric and messages being the main difference, but their goals are pretty similar.
Left radicalization and Right radicalization both lead to violence and oppression, for all things I stated above, and because people want to force the enemy out of the spotlight and push forward their agenda even if it means getting aggressive or even violent, because to them the ends justify the means.

As such, when all is said and done, yes we should ostracize these destructive, self-harming, oppressive, murderous ideologies for all I've stated above, and the danger they present to most people on a grand scale, making them harmful to society, and thus needing to be pushed out.

but the soviet union always had a system of differential wages in place
working "harder" or "smarter" really did translate into a bigger apartment in a nice city

[Bakery Hill]

They did, at first at least, cut taxes, liberalized trade and refused to intervene in the business cycle.

Cutting taxes is not necessarily laissez-faire. Taxes under the Ancien Régime were exclusively on the poor and middle class. Both socialists and liberals would favor cutting taxes under such a scenario.

A minimum platform for any good socialist would include: Cutting taxes further for working class people, eliminating sales taxes on everyday items, a prohibitive tariffs and further luxury taxation on all European cars.

[The Parkus Empire]

Cutting taxes is not necessarily laissez-faire. Taxes under the Ancien Régime were exclusively on the poor and middle class. Both socialists and liberals would favor cutting taxes under such a scenario.

A minimum platform for any good socialist would include: Cutting taxes further for working class people, eliminating sales taxes on everyday items, a prohibitive tariffs and further luxury taxation on all European cars.

Ebin, where do I sign?

[Kubra]

Cutting taxes is not necessarily laissez-faire. Taxes under the Ancien Régime were exclusively on the poor and middle class. Both socialists and liberals would favor cutting taxes under such a scenario.

A minimum platform for any good socialist would include: Cutting taxes further for working class people, eliminating sales taxes on everyday items, a prohibitive tariffs and further luxury taxation on all European cars.

whoa whoa wait hold up leave volkswagen out of this

[The Parkus Empire]

Erm no, your accusation of me making excuses is an attempt to delegitimize my stance against mass murdering ideologies of destruction that only cause death and destruction in every country and never ends in prosperity-like say communism, fascism, or naziism, white supremacy, etc.. We should only ostracize ideologies that cause genocide, destruction, mass death, oppresses the majority of the populace, takes away democracy, etc.

Again, I couldn't care less what you believe about Luxemburgism, libertarian communism, or Antifa (which is widely accepted by Jewish libertarian communists). Fortunately, I have my own agency. You are still trying to make excuses for your hypocrisy.

Isn't libertarian communism just anarchism?

[Bakery Hill]

A minimum platform for any good socialist would include: Cutting taxes further for working class people, eliminating sales taxes on everyday items, a prohibitive tariffs and further luxury taxation on all European cars.

Ebin, where do I sign?

welcome to the party comrade

[Bakery Hill]

A minimum platform for any good socialist would include: Cutting taxes further for working class people, eliminating sales taxes on everyday items, a prohibitive tariffs and further luxury taxation on all European cars.

whoa whoa wait hold up leave volkswagen out of this

volkswagen is not the worst offender but it will not escape our righteous fury

[Kubra]

but the soviet union always had a system of differential wages in place
working "harder" or "smarter" really did translate into a bigger apartment in a nice city

That changes little. The rewards are miniscule.
It didn't incentivize innovation or competition, which is necessary for a functioning economic system.

I'm not a command economy or market economy guy, I'm a mixed economy person.

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
Or living in Vancouver, but being able to afford it too. Damn man, that'd be super awesome.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

[Northern Davincia]

That changes little. The rewards are miniscule.
It didn't incentivize innovation or competition, which is necessary for a functioning economic system.

I'm not a command economy or market economy guy, I'm a mixed economy person.

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

[Kubra]

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

idk parking is seriously terrible, you could be hovering downtown forever looking for a space

[The Parkus Empire]

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

[Bakery Hill]

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

The helicopters will be unionised.

[Bakery Hill]

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
Or living in Vancouver, but being able to afford it too. Damn man, that'd be super awesome.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

Eh, not my cup of tea personally, or what I think will motivate people.

Why do you think people do things then?

[Northern Davincia]

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

idk parking is seriously terrible, you could be hovering downtown forever looking for a space

Very true. I guess it depends on the time of day you travel in.

Owning a helicopter would be nice.

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

Me?
Reactionary?

[Jelmatt]

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

The helicopters will be unionised.

Not the helicopter drivers, note. Well, them too. But the helicopters themselves will have their own union!

Trying to prevent the robot revolt after all.

[Kubra]

idk having another room in my apartment would be a serious change in my life
like really big
I bet access to a personal car would be, like, seriously big as well.
Or living in Vancouver, but being able to afford it too. Damn man, that'd be super awesome.
What, do you mean the opportunity to own a helicopter or something?
Do you own a helicopter?

Eh, not my cup of tea personally, or what I think will motivate people.

So what is the incentive, then? What betters ones life, if it has nothing to do with what one can buy?

[Kubra]

idk parking is seriously terrible, you could be hovering downtown forever looking for a space

Very true. I guess it depends on the time of day you travel in.

Protip: while pay parking lots can't actually enforce fines on cars, they can tow your helicopter away for not being a car. Don't make my mistakes, friend.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I don't see how that's hypocritical.
My belief about saving people's lives doesn't compare to the vast national and international destruction of those systems.
You're completely missing the difference.

You are not going to get me to recount the events again. You can go back and reread what we wrote as well as I can. As far as I am concerned, the discussion is over. I made my point.

[Bakery Hill]

Why do you think people do things then?

Cash, the pleasures of the world, power, influence.
Lots of stuff Communism cannot provide.

Do people want cash because they like paper and/or polymer?

[The Parkus Empire]

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

The helicopters will be unionised.

Bad news for scabs

[Bakery Hill]

The helicopters will be unionised.

Not the helicopter drivers, note. Well, them too. But the helicopters themselves will have their own union!

Trying to prevent the robot revolt after all.

This man gets it.

[The Parkus Empire]

idk parking is seriously terrible, you could be hovering downtown forever looking for a space

Very true. I guess it depends on the time of day you travel in.

Helicopters must be kept out of your reactionary hands, I don't want to worry about free rides if I vote Green

Me?
Reactionary?

Not "reactionary" in a conservative sense, but definitely a liberal reactionary

[Kubra]

Why do you think people do things then?

Cash, the pleasures of the world, power, influence.
Lots of stuff Communism cannot provide.

What do you do with cash
what do you do with power and influence
how much do the pleasures of the world cost

[Kubra]

You are not going to get me to recount the events again. You can go back and reread what we wrote as well as I can. As far as I am concerned, the discussion is over. I made my point.

And your point was nothing but slander based on faulty logic.
But very well.

lol buddy if you got something against slander you in the wrong thread