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Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Was Trotsky Polyamorous?

Yes
141
58%
Yes
103
42%
 
Total votes : 244

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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:51 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Jelmatt wrote:
Radicalism, at least the kind which descends from Rousseau (if I'm interpreting your reference to "general will" correctly) considers the general will to be the (only) legitimate basis of law, not something above the law.

And by extension, above the law, as law becomes invalid whenever general will doesn't concur with it, even if general will made it, as liberalism subscribes to "philosophical presentism".

In the French Revolution, it was held above the law. This doctrine was eventually an important basis of fascism, where it was believed a dictator could embody the national will and liberate it from the rule of law.

Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
....
Let an impure blood
Soak our fields!


-La Marseilles


Just because a law can change to match another ideal doesn't mean that other ideal is above the law. Laws changing do not mean there is no rule of law. In fact, Rousseau explicitly endorsed what we'd today more or less call a Rechtsstaat--public officials and magistrates must at all times be subject to the law.

Also, the very concept of a general will implies constitutional restrictions on what laws are valid, the most prominent being that if a law violates legal equality it is invalid, no matter what the majority says. You could argue to extending this to freedom of speech and conscience, because to actually form the general will genuine input and opinion is required.

The general will, after all, isn't just the sum of people's opinions--Rousseau's quite clear on that.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:56 am

Jelmatt wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:And by extension, above the law, as law becomes invalid whenever general will doesn't concur with it, even if general will made it, as liberalism subscribes to "philosophical presentism".

In the French Revolution, it was held above the law. This doctrine was eventually an important basis of fascism, where it was believed a dictator could embody the national will and liberate it from the rule of law.

Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
....
Let an impure blood
Soak our fields!


-La Marseilles


Just because a law can change to match another ideal doesn't mean that other ideal is above the law. Laws changing do not mean there is no rule of law. In fact, Rousseau explicitly endorsed what we'd today more or less call a Rechtsstaat--public officials and magistrates must at all times be subject to the law.

Also, the very concept of a general will implies constitutional restrictions on what laws are valid, the most prominent being that if a law violates legal equality it is invalid, no matter what the majority says. You could argue to extending this to freedom of speech and conscience, because to actually form the general will genuine input and opinion is required.

The general will, after all, isn't just the sum of people's opinions--Rousseau's quite clear on that.

To say public officials must be subject to law is of course intended to mean they should be subject to general will.

The sum of opinions would be a cacophony
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:57 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Eternal Lotharia wrote:By the way, am I the only one seeing the increased radicalization of the left and right?
It's worrying.


I want to see more radicalization on the Left.

With radicalization comes violence, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, and rigidity in policy. Radicalization is good news for no one.
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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:00 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Jelmatt wrote:
Just because a law can change to match another ideal doesn't mean that other ideal is above the law. Laws changing do not mean there is no rule of law. In fact, Rousseau explicitly endorsed what we'd today more or less call a Rechtsstaat--public officials and magistrates must at all times be subject to the law.

Also, the very concept of a general will implies constitutional restrictions on what laws are valid, the most prominent being that if a law violates legal equality it is invalid, no matter what the majority says. You could argue to extending this to freedom of speech and conscience, because to actually form the general will genuine input and opinion is required.

The general will, after all, isn't just the sum of people's opinions--Rousseau's quite clear on that.

To say public officials must be subject to law is of course intended to mean they should be subject to general will.

The sum of opinions would be a cacophony


And not because the general will is superior to the law, but because it is the law.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:17 am

Jelmatt wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:To say public officials must be subject to law is of course intended to mean they should be subject to general will.

The sum of opinions would be a cacophony


And not because the general will is superior to the law, but because it is the law.

General will fluctuates faster than law, I would say.
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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:21 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Jelmatt wrote:
And not because the general will is superior to the law, but because it is the law.

General will fluctuates faster than law, I would say.


Again, the general will isn't identical with majority opinion. It implies restrictions and limitations on complete majority rule as well as requiring laws to be made promoting the particular interest of no specific group in society.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:25 am

Jelmatt wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:General will fluctuates faster than law, I would say.


Again, the general will isn't identical with majority opinion. It implies restrictions and limitations on complete majority rule as well as requiring laws to be made promoting the particular interest of no specific group in society.

Now you're veering into Federalist Papers grounds and away from Rousseau. The Federalist Papers also say the upper house has to check popular will, and that even lower house representatives are to go by their best judgement, not popular will.
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:28 am

Jelmatt is actually spot-on regarding the actual mechanism of the law.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:31 am

Taihei Tengoku wrote:Jelmatt is actually spot-on regarding the actual mechanism of the law.

He is, but we aren't talking about that, we're talking about Rousseau.
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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:32 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Jelmatt wrote:
Again, the general will isn't identical with majority opinion. It implies restrictions and limitations on complete majority rule as well as requiring laws to be made promoting the particular interest of no specific group in society.

Now you're veering into Federalist Papers grounds and away from Rousseau. The Federalist Papers also say the upper house has to check popular will, and that even lower house representatives are to go by their best judgement, not popular will.


That's not what I'm talking about. Rousseau makes a distinction between the will of all and the general will, where the latter requires, for instance, taking into account everyone's interests and rights and equality before the law. Rousseau also wrote pretty extensively about checks and balances in his treatise about Poland IIRC, but I can't find the exact details right now. Maybe in a couple hours.
Last edited by Jelmatt on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 am

Jelmatt wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Now you're veering into Federalist Papers grounds and away from Rousseau. The Federalist Papers also say the upper house has to check popular will, and that even lower house representatives are to go by their best judgement, not popular will.


That's not what I'm talking about. Rousseau makes a distinction between the will of all and the general will, where the latter requires, for instance, taking into account everyone's interests and rights and equality before the law. Rousseau also wrote pretty extensively about checks and balances in his treatise about Poland IIRC, but I can't find the exact details right now. Maybe in a couple hours.



"AS long as several men in assembly regard themselves as a single body, they have only a single will which is concerned with their common preservation and general well-being. In this case, all the springs of the State are vigorous and simple and its rules clear and luminous; there are no embroilments or conflicts of interests; the common good is everywhere clearly apparent, and only good sense is needed to perceive it. "

....

"A State so governed needs very few laws; and, as it becomes necessary to issue new ones, the necessity is universally seen. The first man to propose them merely says what all have already felt, and there is no question of factions or intrigues or eloquence in order to secure the passage into law of what every one has already decided to do, as soon as he is sure that the rest will act with him."

....

"The more concert reigns in the assemblies, that is, the nearer opinion approaches unanimity, the greater is the dominance of the general will. On the other hand, long debates, dissensions and tumult proclaim the ascendancy of particular interests and the decline of the State."

...

"There is but one law which, from its nature, needs unanimous consent. This is the social compact; for civil association is the most voluntary of all acts. Every man being born free and his own master, no one, under any pretext whatsoever, can make any man subject without his consent. To decide that the son of a slave is born a slave is to decide that he is not born a man."

"If then there are opponents when the social compact is made, their opposition does not invalidate the contract, but merely prevents them from being included in it. They are foreigners among citizens. When the State is instituted, residence constitutes consent; to dwell within its territory is to submit to the Sovereign."

"Apart from this primitive contract, the vote of the majority always binds all the rest. "
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:01 am

Bakery Hill wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I initially wrote this off as a meme, but then you defended it. Why? Why do you despise prosperity?

Combat decadence.

Ah yea. Decadent, complacent, materialist consumerism. Straight outta English Class' Great Gatsby unit.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:02 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Jelmatt wrote:
That's not what I'm talking about. Rousseau makes a distinction between the will of all and the general will, where the latter requires, for instance, taking into account everyone's interests and rights and equality before the law. Rousseau also wrote pretty extensively about checks and balances in his treatise about Poland IIRC, but I can't find the exact details right now. Maybe in a couple hours.



"AS long as several men in assembly regard themselves as a single body, they have only a single will which is concerned with their common preservation and general well-being. In this case, all the springs of the State are vigorous and simple and its rules clear and luminous; there are no embroilments or conflicts of interests; the common good is everywhere clearly apparent, and only good sense is needed to perceive it. "

....

"A State so governed needs very few laws; and, as it becomes necessary to issue new ones, the necessity is universally seen. The first man to propose them merely says what all have already felt, and there is no question of factions or intrigues or eloquence in order to secure the passage into law of what every one has already decided to do, as soon as he is sure that the rest will act with him."

....

"The more concert reigns in the assemblies, that is, the nearer opinion approaches unanimity, the greater is the dominance of the general will. On the other hand, long debates, dissensions and tumult proclaim the ascendancy of particular interests and the decline of the State."

...

"There is but one law which, from its nature, needs unanimous consent. This is the social compact; for civil association is the most voluntary of all acts. Every man being born free and his own master, no one, under any pretext whatsoever, can make any man subject without his consent. To decide that the son of a slave is born a slave is to decide that he is not born a man."

"If then there are opponents when the social compact is made, their opposition does not invalidate the contract, but merely prevents them from being included in it. They are foreigners among citizens. When the State is instituted, residence constitutes consent; to dwell within its territory is to submit to the Sovereign."

"Apart from this primitive contract, the vote of the majority always binds all the rest. "


I've got to log off now, but I'll post a reply later today.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:35 am

When therefore the opinion that is contrary to my own prevails, this proves neither more nor less than that I was mistaken, and that what I thought to be the general will was not so. If my particular opinion had carried the day I should have achieved the opposite of what was my will; and it is in that case that I should not have been free.

One can see how fascism essentially perfected this logic
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Democratic Communist Federation
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:54 am

Firaxin wrote:I'm not the only one turned off by the constant derogatory statements about the rich, right? They are people too, even if some of them are consumed by Greed. We shouldn't attack them, we should make them recognize what they are doing is wrong. If they refuse then we force them to comply by law, for their own good.


I will take that as meaning I need to make more such derogatory statements. Obviously, they are having the desired effect. :rofl:
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Democratic Communist Federation
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Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:57 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:With radicalization comes violence, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, and rigidity in policy. Radicalization is good news for no one.


You are confusing Left radicalism with right radicalism.
Ššālōm ʿălēyəḵẹm, Mōšẹh ʾẠhărōn hạ•Lēwiy bẹn Hẹʿrəšẹʿl (Hebrew/Yiddish, מֹשֶׁה אַהֲרֹן הַלֵוִי בֶּן הֶערְשֶׁעל)
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You are welcome as an embassy of Antifa Dialectical metaRealism. Our ♥️ ḏik°r
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:05 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:With radicalization comes violence, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, and rigidity in policy. Radicalization is good news for no one.


You are confusing Left radicalism with right radicalism.


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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:06 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:With radicalization comes violence, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, and rigidity in policy. Radicalization is good news for no one.


You are confusing Left radicalism with right radicalism.

radicalism is all the same, just with different rhetoric to justify their actions
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The Multiversal Communist Collective
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Postby The Multiversal Communist Collective » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:10 am

Proctopeo wrote:radicalism is all the same, just with different rhetoric to justify their actions


IMO, that is pure BS.

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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 am

The Multiversal Communist Collective wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:radicalism is all the same, just with different rhetoric to justify their actions


IMO, that is pure BS.

Why are you booing me? I'm right!
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:15 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:With radicalization comes violence, authoritarianism, fundamentalism, and rigidity in policy. Radicalization is good news for no one.


You are confusing Left radicalism with right radicalism.

I'm really not. Radicalism can lead to the USSR just as much as it can lead to Nazi Germany.
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The Multiversal Communist Collective
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Postby The Multiversal Communist Collective » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:15 am

Proctopeo wrote:Why are you booing me? I'm right!


And I am the man in the moon. You believe me, right?

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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:17 am

The Multiversal Communist Collective wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Why are you booing me? I'm right!


And I am the man in the moon. You believe me, right?

You mean the guy from Mac Tonight?
Yeah, I'd believe it.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 am

The Multiversal Communist Collective wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Why are you booing me? I'm right!


And I am the man in the moon. You believe me, right?

You're moon man. I'd believe that.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
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The Multiversal Communist Collective
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Postby The Multiversal Communist Collective » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I'm really not. Radicalism can lead to the USSR just as much as it can lead to Nazi Germany.


If you know anything about libertarian Marxist communists, we consider the USSR to have been right wing.

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