Is it wrong to have children?

[Mujahidah]

Thats a rather depressing worldview.

We can help continue our species through many different ways, none of which have to be depressing.

Fair. I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

[Reutoa]

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

Would you consider the infertile to be objective failures?

No, they can help Humanity in many different ways. Not just in reproduction.

[Kernen]

David Benatar and his arguments against existence are both fascinating. He argues that the end goal of veganism is anti-natalism, as it is the most effective form of environmental protection.

My favorite argument is easily the asymmetry of existence vs. nonexistence:

Those that exist experience both good and bad. Good experience is a benefit, while bad experience is a harm. +1 and -1.

Those who never exist never experience either. Not experiencing good is neutral, while not experiencing harm is good. 0 and +1. On the whole then, never having existed is technically better than to exist.

There are arguments against this, and as I recall, Benatar effectively counters them. Regrettably, I don't remember nearly so much of his book as that.

Somehow it seems inherently wrong to imply that "not experiencing good" is simply neutral and not negative.

I'm digging waaaay back here, but I believe his argument was something like this:

We don't think it harms you to miss a good opportunity. You're unaffected. Arguing that it is a harm is inconsistent with how we react to missed benefit verses missed harm.

Additionally, he argues that we have a moral obligation not to create unhappy people, and we have no moral obligation to create happy people. The reason why there is a moral obligation not to create unhappy people is that we believe the presence of pain is bad for those who are hurt, and the absence of pain is good also when there is no someone who is experiencing this good. By contrast, the reason for which there is no moral obligation to create happy people is that although the feeling of pleasure (benefit) would be good for them, the absence of pleasure when they do not come into existence will not be bad, because there will be no one who will be deprived of this good.

He also argues that, if you reverse your argument (if no benefit is neutral, so is no harm), then you justify no moral quandary with the existence of a creature who can feel nothing but pain.

[Hakons]

And shortly after the civil war, these millions of slaves experienced the Jubilee and were freed from slavery. They were certainly glad to experience that. There's no such thing as a wasteful life. Even doing nothing is not doing other things (opportunity cost).

If you subscribe to nihilism, I suppose wanting non existence is an easy conclusion. Amung other things, this demonstrates that nihilism is truly an awful ideology.

What about the millions who never got the chance to experience freedom? I believe that the existence of humans is a mistake. I don't see a real reason for any of us to exist. Non existence is an easy conclusion, especially compared to what you might experience in your life. No one asked to be born. So they should not be expected to continue to live

The millions of unemancipated still experienced joys at one time or another. If it was completely unbearable, they would have committed suicide. Some did, but most did not, because they realized they could enjoy some parts of life and they had the hope for freedom in their life or in the next life.

The existence of humanity is most definitely not a mistake. Arguing for no existence is arguing for mass suicide. That's not good. You are correct that no one asked to be born. That is because that question does not even exist. You have existed and there's no going back. Take control of the life you have been given.

[VoVoDoCo]

Would you consider the infertile to be objective failures?

No, they can help Humanity in many different ways. Not just in reproduction.

Would you say that whatever ways the infertile contribute is meaningless?

[Hakons]

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

Why does our species exist in the first place?

Like many people, I take the religious perspective. Humanity exists because we were made to exist by God. We were made to enjoy this good creation, and as good creation ourselves we were made to be in Communion with our Creator.

[Reutoa]

No, they can help Humanity in many different ways. Not just in reproduction.

Would you say that whatever ways the infertile contribute is meaningless?

I just said "They can help Humanity in many different ways." So no, I don't think what they contribute with is Meaningless. They're helping in their own way.

[Reutoa]

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

Why does our species exist in the first place?

Sorry for not seeing this, here let me answer your question.

Like how Hakons said, I believe Humanity was created by God.

[Asardia]

What about the millions who never got the chance to experience freedom? I believe that the existence of humans is a mistake. I don't see a real reason for any of us to exist. Non existence is an easy conclusion, especially compared to what you might experience in your life. No one asked to be born. So they should not be expected to continue to live

The millions of unemancipated still experienced joys at one time or another. If it was completely unbearable, they would have committed suicide. Some did, but most did not, because they realized they could enjoy some parts of life and they had the hope for freedom in their life or in the next life.

The existence of humanity is most definitely not a mistake. Arguing for no existence is arguing for mass suicide. That's not good. You are correct that no one asked to be born. That is because that question does not even exist. You have existed and there's no going back. Take control of the life you have been given.

Why should I live a life I never asked for? Why should I be expected to live just because my parents decided to reproduce? I exist not because I wanted to, but because my parents let it happen.

Anyway, the slaves did "experience joys at one time or another", but still being enslaved would ultimately make the rest of those joys meaningless. I don't understand how someone can willingly give birth knowing their children will endure a life of hell. Also, how exactly can you "take control of the life you have been given", if you were one of the 4 million slaves? They had little control over their own lives.

[Asardia]

Why does our species exist in the first place?

Sorry for not seeing this, here let me answer your question.

Like how Hakons said, I believe Humanity was created by God.

How would you explain God to a non believer?

[Reutoa]

Sorry for not seeing this, here let me answer your question.

Like how Hakons said, I believe Humanity was created by God.

How would you explain God to a non believer?

I'd probably get a Bible and sit down with him/her for a while.

[Kernen]

How would you explain God to a non believer?

I'd probably get a Bible and sit down with him/her for a while.

As a non-believer, I can say that will probably just annoy them.

[VoVoDoCo]

Would you say that whatever ways the infertile contribute is meaningless?

I just said "They can help Humanity in many different ways." So no, I don't think what they contribute with is Meaningless. They're helping in their own way.

You also said earlier that:

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

So, our only purpose is to procreate? Unless you can't? Then it's just whatever you can contribute?

Isn't easier to just say that our purpose is to contribute? I feel like there's a bunch of unnecessary "unless" clauses in that line of thinking.

[Puldania]

yes

[VoVoDoCo]

Sorry for not seeing this, here let me answer your question.

Like how Hakons said, I believe Humanity was created by God.

How would you explain God to a non believer?

I find it much more interesting to watch a non believer explain God to a believer.

[Asardia]

Why does our species exist in the first place?

Like many people, I take the religious perspective. Humanity exists because we were made to exist by God. We were made to enjoy this good creation, and as good creation ourselves we were made to be in Communion with our Creator.

God knows and sees evil in this world. He let people exist, knowing their life will be miserable. I'll bring back the slavery argument here. How can a God, who claims he "loves us", allow millions to be tortured? A God who sees evil and does nothing about it is not a God I want to believe in. Those slaves begged for mercy, and millions never got it until they died (which can be decades).

[Kernen]

I just said "They can help Humanity in many different ways." So no, I don't think what they contribute with is Meaningless. They're helping in their own way.

You also said earlier that:

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

So, our only purpose is to procreate? Unless you can't? Then it's just whatever you can contribute?

Isn't easier to just say that our purpose is to contribute? I feel like there's a bunch of unnecessary "unless" clauses in that line of thinking.

The big flaw in saying our purpose is solely to procreate is that it justifies, at worst, rape in the name of procreation, and at best justifies treating women as breeders and not individuals with reproductive autonomy. There has to be more than mere procreation.

[VoVoDoCo]

You also said earlier that:

So, our only purpose is to procreate? Unless you can't? Then it's just whatever you can contribute?

Isn't easier to just say that our purpose is to contribute? I feel like there's a bunch of unnecessary "unless" clauses in that line of thinking.

The big flaw in saying our purpose is solely to procreate is that it justifies, at worst, rape in the name of procreation, and at best justifies treating women as breeders and not individuals with reproductive autonomy. There has to be more than mere procreation.

Fair enough.

[Reutoa]

I just said "They can help Humanity in many different ways." So no, I don't think what they contribute with is Meaningless. They're helping in their own way.

You also said earlier that:

We exist to continue our Species, nothing more or else.

So, our only purpose is to procreate? Unless you can't? Then it's just whatever you can contribute?

Isn't it easier to just say that our purpose is to contribute? I feel like there's a bunch of unnecessary "unless" clauses in that line of thinking.

Our original purpose is to reproduce, that's the first job of any species. Now if a member of that species cannot reproduce with a Mate, then they can find another way to help their species as a Whole.

[Battlefleet Retaliation]

...
...
Are we seriously debating this?
You know what I'm going to bed.

[Kernen]

...
...
Are we seriously debating this?
You know what fuck this I'm going to bed.

Anti-natalism has some good philosophical points. They may not definitely don't stand up in the real world, but as an academic exercise, it's interesting.

[Reutoa]

How would you explain God to a non believer?

I find it much more interesting to watch a non believer explain God to a believer.

I think it's interesting too, I always like seeing other people's opinions.

[VoVoDoCo]

You also said earlier that:

So, our only purpose is to procreate? Unless you can't? Then it's just whatever you can contribute?

Isn't it easier to just say that our purpose is to contribute? I feel like there's a bunch of unnecessary "unless" clauses in that line of thinking.

Our original purpose is to reproduce, that's the first job of any species. Now if a member of that species cannot reproduce with a Mate, then they can find another way to help their species as a Whole.

So if a fertile person chooses not to have a kid, then are they objectively a failure?

[Puldania]

I find it much more interesting to watch a non believer explain God to a believer.

I think it's interesting too, I always like seeing other people's opinions.

So basically it's this guy with a beard who doesn't exist that really stupid people follow on twitter or whatever...

[Hakons]

The millions of unemancipated still experienced joys at one time or another. If it was completely unbearable, they would have committed suicide. Some did, but most did not, because they realized they could enjoy some parts of life and they had the hope for freedom in their life or in the next life.

The existence of humanity is most definitely not a mistake. Arguing for no existence is arguing for mass suicide. That's not good. You are correct that no one asked to be born. That is because that question does not even exist. You have existed and there's no going back. Take control of the life you have been given.

Why should I live a life I never asked for? Why should I be expected to live just because my parents decided to reproduce? I exist not because I wanted to, but because my parents let it happen.

Anyway, the slaves did "experience joys at one time or another", but still being enslaved would ultimately make the rest of those joys meaningless. I don't understand how someone can willingly give birth knowing their children will endure a life of hell. Also, how exactly can you "take control of the life you have been given", if you were one of the 4 million slaves? They had little control over their own lives.

You should live your life because it is the only way. I will repeat, you did not decide to be born because that it is not even a possible question. You exist because you are.

You are presently conscious. You are breathing. You're enjoying the internet. You're debating and having an intellectual exchange. This is good. You are good. Just claim it.

I believe I exist because God ordained that my soul should be created and inhabit this body. You don't need to believe this, just realize that your life has purpose. It definitely has meaning. My ending statement was not about the slaves. Take control of the life you have been given.