NATION

PASSWORD

Trump MAGAThread XII: A Tarriff-ic Thread!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 am

West Leas Oros wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No it isn't. Not in the fucking slightest. The specific claim made is that there was an offence committed that the FBI should have investigated. That claim was a lie, and my post gives precisely the reason that it's a lie. It's exactly the opposite of a cop-out: it's a direct refutation of the central point.

Also, the whole idea of having a primary is silly and only serves to preserve the shitshow that is two-party politics: the parties should just choose their damned candidates and get on with the real elections.

Wouldn’t abolishing primaries protect the two party system more than keeping them would?


Nope: with the current system, if your don't agree with either of the main parties, the most effective way to get into power is to join one of them and attempt to win a primary. Without the primary system, the most effective way to get into power would be to start a third party.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No it isn't. Not in the fucking slightest. The specific claim made is that there was an offence committed that the FBI should have investigated. That claim was a lie, and my post gives precisely the reason that it's a lie. It's exactly the opposite of a cop-out: it's a direct refutation of the central point.

Also, the whole idea of having a primary is silly and only serves to preserve the shitshow that is two-party politics: the parties should just choose their damned candidates and get on with the real elections.


You think Obama was a bad choice?


Oh look, a non-sequitur.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Hittanryan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9044
Founded: Mar 10, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hittanryan » Tue May 29, 2018 8:05 am

Salandriagado wrote:
West Leas Oros wrote:Wouldn’t abolishing primaries protect the two party system more than keeping them would?


Nope: with the current system, if your don't agree with either of the main parties, the most effective way to get into power is to join one of them and attempt to win a primary. Without the primary system, the most effective way to get into power would be to start a third party.

As long as we have FPTP elections, we will have a two party system. It's inevitable. Third parties will only ever be spoilers. I don't like it, but math is a harsh mistress.
In-character name of the nation is "Adiron," because I like the name better.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 8:09 am

Hittanryan wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Nope: with the current system, if your don't agree with either of the main parties, the most effective way to get into power is to join one of them and attempt to win a primary. Without the primary system, the most effective way to get into power would be to start a third party.

As long as we have FPTP elections, we will have a two party system. It's inevitable. Third parties will only ever be spoilers. I don't like it, but math is a harsh mistress.


*Looks at Europe*

You were saying?
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Everhall
Senator
 
Posts: 4158
Founded: Sep 23, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Everhall » Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am

Salandriagado wrote:
West Leas Oros wrote:Wouldn’t abolishing primaries protect the two party system more than keeping them would?


Nope: with the current system, if your don't agree with either of the main parties, the most effective way to get into power is to join one of them and attempt to win a primary. Without the primary system, the most effective way to get into power would be to start a third party.

And yet, before we even had primaries we still had a two party system

+ if you're gonna mention Europe, name the specific country you're talking about.
Last edited by Everhall on Tue May 29, 2018 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hittanryan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9044
Founded: Mar 10, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hittanryan » Tue May 29, 2018 8:22 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Hittanryan wrote:As long as we have FPTP elections, we will have a two party system. It's inevitable. Third parties will only ever be spoilers. I don't like it, but math is a harsh mistress.


*Looks at Europe*

You were saying?

...what country in Europe?
In-character name of the nation is "Adiron," because I like the name better.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 8:24 am

Everhall wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Nope: with the current system, if your don't agree with either of the main parties, the most effective way to get into power is to join one of them and attempt to win a primary. Without the primary system, the most effective way to get into power would be to start a third party.

And yet, before we even had primaries we still had a two party system

+ if you're gonna mention Europe, name the specific country you're talking about.


Most of them? Let's start with France.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Hittanryan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9044
Founded: Mar 10, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hittanryan » Tue May 29, 2018 8:34 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Everhall wrote:And yet, before we even had primaries we still had a two party system

+ if you're gonna mention Europe, name the specific country you're talking about.


Most of them? Let's start with France.

I'm confused. Are you saying that every other electoral system also always results in a two party system? Are you arguing in favor of FPTP? What is your point here?
In-character name of the nation is "Adiron," because I like the name better.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 8:39 am

Hittanryan wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Most of them? Let's start with France.

I'm confused. Are you saying that every other electoral system also always results in a two party system? Are you arguing in favor of FPTP? What is your point here?


Try reading my posts. Notice that France has an essentially FPTP system, and significantly more than two parties represented in it. Ditto the UK. My point has been explicitly stated already.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10649
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue May 29, 2018 8:40 am

Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47603
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue May 29, 2018 8:58 am

Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Hittanryan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9044
Founded: Mar 10, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hittanryan » Tue May 29, 2018 9:08 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Hittanryan wrote:I'm confused. Are you saying that every other electoral system also always results in a two party system? Are you arguing in favor of FPTP? What is your point here?


Try reading my posts. Notice that France has an essentially FPTP system, and significantly more than two parties represented in it. Ditto the UK. My point has been explicitly stated already.

Apologies, browsing casually on a phone during a break.

When it comes to the legislature, I don't think France's two-round system can really be considered the exact same as the US's single-member district FPTP elections.
In-character name of the nation is "Adiron," because I like the name better.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 9:09 am

Hittanryan wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Try reading my posts. Notice that France has an essentially FPTP system, and significantly more than two parties represented in it. Ditto the UK. My point has been explicitly stated already.

Apologies, browsing casually on a phone during a break.

When it comes to the legislature, I don't think France's two-round system can really be considered the exact same as the US's single-member district FPTP elections.


No, but it's even more strongly inclined towards a two-party system. If you prefer a pure example, try Scotland.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
The Flutterlands
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15157
Founded: Oct 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Flutterlands » Tue May 29, 2018 9:16 am

Also, if America had more than two parties, wouldn't they coalesce into factions of regions considering the cultural and political differences?
Call me Flutters - Minister of Justice of the Federation of the Shy One - Fluttershy is best pony
Who I side with - My Discord - OC Pony - Pitch Black
White, American, Male, Asexual, Deist, Autistic with Aspergers and ADHD, Civil Liberatarian and Democratic Socialist, Brony and Whovian. I have Neurofibromatosis Type 1. I'm also INTJ
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.77
Pros: Choice, Democracy, Liberatarianism, Populism, Secularism, Equal Rights, Contraceptives, Immigration, Environmentalism, Free Speech and Egalitarianism
Con: Communism, Fascism, SJW 'Feminism', Terrorism, Homophobia, Transphobia, Xenophobia, Death Penalty, Totalitarianism, Neoliberalism, and War.
Ravenclaw

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13448
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Tue May 29, 2018 9:24 am



pretty good considering i have electricity.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

User avatar
Hittanryan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9044
Founded: Mar 10, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hittanryan » Tue May 29, 2018 10:12 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Hittanryan wrote:Apologies, browsing casually on a phone during a break.

When it comes to the legislature, I don't think France's two-round system can really be considered the exact same as the US's single-member district FPTP elections.


No, but it's even more strongly inclined towards a two-party system. If you prefer a pure example, try Scotland.

In theory the two round system isn't automatically predisposed to a two party system. If one or both of the two largest parties put up unpopular candidates, and one of them didn't make it to the second round, everyone else could pool their votes in a third party candidate. In practice I'm sure it doesn't work out ideally. It's likely at the mercy of voter turnout and ideological voters who refuse to vote in the second round.

In a straight FPTP single member district election, unless a third party outright displaces one of the two majors, they can only be a spoiler.
In-character name of the nation is "Adiron," because I like the name better.

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10649
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue May 29, 2018 10:56 am

Uxupox wrote:


pretty good considering i have electricity.

Getting power from Whitefish Energy?
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 17717
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue May 29, 2018 10:57 am

The Flutterlands wrote:Also, if America had more than two parties, wouldn't they coalesce into factions of regions considering the cultural and political differences?

Well, we don't see than anywhere else. In fact, the most regional factionalism we see is in the US, with the urban democrats vs the rural republicans, and in Britain, where the Scottish National Party is big. Generally, smaller parties combine into loose coalitions, that shift depending on the political climate.

Salandriagado wrote:
Hittanryan wrote:I'm confused. Are you saying that every other electoral system also always results in a two party system? Are you arguing in favor of FPTP? What is your point here?


Try reading my posts. Notice that France has an essentially FPTP system, and significantly more than two parties represented in it. Ditto the UK. My point has been explicitly stated already.

The UK has a two party system, because the LibDems can't be called a serious opposition, so the UK is split between Tory and Labour. In France, the Parliament is basically entirely occupied by REM.

The rest of Europe (Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Spain...) does not have anything that resembles FPTP.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63508
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Tue May 29, 2018 11:01 am

The Flutterlands wrote:Also, if America had more than two parties, wouldn't they coalesce into factions of regions considering the cultural and political differences?

...no, there is no reason to thank that would happen.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

YangGang2020

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10649
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue May 29, 2018 11:08 am

And in the If It's Not Corruption Then It's One Helluva Coincidence Department...

Ivanka Trump's Chinese trademarks raise questions about potential conflicts of interest

Ivanka was granted 7 fashion trademarks by China, then Donnie vows to help out ZTE. It's Trump, so shame is nonexistent and it's probably more IMAX scale projection to boot.
Last edited by Petrasylvania on Tue May 29, 2018 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
West Leas Oros
Minister
 
Posts: 2597
Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Tue May 29, 2018 11:22 am

Petrasylvania wrote:And in the If It's Not Corruption Then It's One Helluva Coincidence Department...

Ivanka Trump's Chinese trademarks raise questions about potential conflicts of interest

Ivanka was granted 7 fashion trademarks by China, then Donnie vows to help out ZTE. It's Trump, so shame is nonexistent and it's probably more IMAX scale projection to boot.

It’s corruption. Nothing new for the Trump Administration.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

WLO Public News: Protest turns violent as Orosian Anarchists burn building. 2 found dead, 8 injured. Investigation continues.

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13448
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Tue May 29, 2018 11:25 am

Petrasylvania wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
pretty good considering i have electricity.

Getting power from Whitefish Energy?


no from trash levels of aee.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10649
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue May 29, 2018 11:30 am

West Leas Oros wrote:
Petrasylvania wrote:And in the If It's Not Corruption Then It's One Helluva Coincidence Department...

Ivanka Trump's Chinese trademarks raise questions about potential conflicts of interest

Ivanka was granted 7 fashion trademarks by China, then Donnie vows to help out ZTE. It's Trump, so shame is nonexistent and it's probably more IMAX scale projection to boot.

It’s corruption. Nothing new for the Trump Administration.

What's disturbing is how Donnie has managed bulk corruption that the Republican base dismisses as MAGA where if a Democrat did a fraction of that there would be bloodroars for impeachment.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 11:42 am

Hittanryan wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No, but it's even more strongly inclined towards a two-party system. If you prefer a pure example, try Scotland.

In theory the two round system isn't automatically predisposed to a two party system. If one or both of the two largest parties put up unpopular candidates, and one of them didn't make it to the second round, everyone else could pool their votes in a third party candidate. In practice I'm sure it doesn't work out ideally. It's likely at the mercy of voter turnout and ideological voters who refuse to vote in the second round.

In a straight FPTP single member district election, unless a third party outright displaces one of the two majors, they can only be a spoiler.


Your second line applies identically to the first round of a two-round system, though. At which point the third parties are back to being less than spoilers, because they don't even do anything in the second round.
Last edited by Salandriagado on Tue May 29, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19459
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 29, 2018 11:43 am

Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:
The Flutterlands wrote:Also, if America had more than two parties, wouldn't they coalesce into factions of regions considering the cultural and political differences?

Well, we don't see than anywhere else. In fact, the most regional factionalism we see is in the US, with the urban democrats vs the rural republicans, and in Britain, where the Scottish National Party is big. Generally, smaller parties combine into loose coalitions, that shift depending on the political climate.

Salandriagado wrote:
Try reading my posts. Notice that France has an essentially FPTP system, and significantly more than two parties represented in it. Ditto the UK. My point has been explicitly stated already.

The UK has a two party system, because the LibDems can't be called a serious opposition, so the UK is split between Tory and Labour. In France, the Parliament is basically entirely occupied by REM.

The rest of Europe (Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Spain...) does not have anything that resembles FPTP.


Notice that I said Scotland.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alpes a Septentrionali imperium, Cetacea, Galloism, Kasa Tkoth Sphere, Luminesa, Plzen, Post War America, Raider Clans, Salus Maior, Southern Ryueth, Telconi, Treadwellia, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads

cron