Diversity and Multiculturalism II:Make Diversity Great Again

[San Lumen]

Then you dont know much about Utah. How did that managed to get passed then?

Yes, and I suppose you're the expert on Utah politics.

I never claimed to be. I do know history

[Kubumba Tribe]

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/

You're not gonna find Shari'ah over there. At least not 100%.

I'm talking about halal and haram, not likes and dislikes.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/

Prove it

Utah was founded by the Mormon church. They were seeking a means to practice their religion free from prosecution.

Read the history section of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah

I'm asking you to prove that the Mormon Church runs Utah, I'm not asking about Utah's history.

[Aellex]

Yes, and I suppose you're the expert on Utah politics.

I never claimed to be. I do know history

You don't tho, you've proved that enough.
London was founded by the Roman Empire, does that means that the City is ruled by Italians?

[Napkiraly]

I still don't see how this has anything to do with cultural change...

Utah also has a law banning housing discrimination regarding LGBT people as well as employment. The Mormon church basically runs the state so the fact it has a law like that shows the church has changed.

Except it hasn't. It still teaches chastity for its homosexual members.

[Purgatio]

I still don't see how this has anything to do with cultural change...

Utah also has a law banning housing discrimination regarding LGBT people as well as employment. The Mormon church basically runs the state so the fact it has a law like that shows the church has changed.

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#214

"Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance."

Straight out of the LDS handbook itself, setting out current (not past) LDS official policy and guidelines. Sounds like something straight out of the 1950s. Face it, Mormonism has no place in a sane, modern, civilised society. If they want to leave mainstream society and establish their cuckoo-fundamentalist land somewhere else, fine, but no sane, civilised country that believes in culture integration and assimilation should allow them a place within their borders.

[Purgatio]

I should add on top for completeness that a Gallup poll conducted in 2018 https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx found that 67% of American adults agreed that gay and lesbian sexual relations are "morally acceptable", religions like Mormonism which so fervently and uniformly preach that gay and lesbian sex is always immoral and "contrary to the purposes of human sexuality" and deserving of "Church discipline" is, by definition, sorely out of step with the cultural norms and values of a modern America. They don't belong in America.

[Napkiraly]

I wish we could go back to 1969 and toss out all the pro-gay rights activists since according to Purgatio's logic they wouldn't deserve to be in America.

[Purgatio]

I wish we could go back to 1969 and toss out all the pro-gay rights activists since according to Purgatio's logic they wouldn't deserve to be in America.

Funnily enough, my whole point of the argument I'm making is that multi-cultural societies are bad and promote unnecessary internal strife and division, and that mono-cultural societies (a) maximise choice for people of different cultural tribes whilst (b) improving communal harmony and national solidarity within the mono-cultural society. So yes, in a divided 1960s it would be best if pro-LGBT and anti-LGBT persons had separate countries of their own to avoid some of the violence (ie Stonewall) which took place owing to inter-cultural tensions and strife.

Now, however, the tables have turned and the US is overwhelmingly pro-LGBT. Hence, the better solution for social stability is the removal of Mormons from the country unless they are willing to change their beliefs and integrate or assimilate into America. Otherwise to allow them to stay without integrating is a recipe for cultural isolationism and ghettoisation.

[Telconi]

I should add on top for completeness that a Gallup poll conducted in 2018 https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx found that 67% of American adults agreed that gay and lesbian sexual relations are "morally acceptable", religions like Mormonism which so fervently and uniformly preach that gay and lesbian sex is always immoral and "contrary to the purposes of human sexuality" and deserving of "Church discipline" is, by definition, sorely out of step with the cultural norms and values of a modern America. They don't belong in America.

America doesn't have social and cultural norms...

[Purgatio]

I should add on top for completeness that a Gallup poll conducted in 2018 https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx found that 67% of American adults agreed that gay and lesbian sexual relations are "morally acceptable", religions like Mormonism which so fervently and uniformly preach that gay and lesbian sex is always immoral and "contrary to the purposes of human sexuality" and deserving of "Church discipline" is, by definition, sorely out of step with the cultural norms and values of a modern America. They don't belong in America.

America doesn't have social and cultural norms...

So you think a small religious group that mandates "Church discipline" for all LGBT individuals is integrating well into mainstream American society?

[Kowani]

I wish we could go back to 1969 and toss out all the pro-gay rights activists since according to Purgatio's logic they wouldn't deserve to be in America.

Funnily enough, my whole point of the argument I'm making is that multi-cultural societies are bad and promote unnecessary internal strife and division, and that mono-cultural societies (a) maximise choice for people of different cultural tribes whilst (b) improving communal harmony and national solidarity within the mono-cultural society. So yes, in a divided 1960s it would be best if pro-LGBT and anti-LGBT persons had separate countries of their own to avoid some of the violence (ie Stonewall) which took place owing to inter-cultural tensions and strife.

Now, however, the tables have turned and the US is overwhelmingly pro-LGBT. Hence, the better solution for social stability is the removal of Mormons from the country unless they are willing to change their beliefs and integrate or assimilate into America. Otherwise to allow them to stay without integrating is a recipe for cultural isolationism and ghettoisation.

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

[Telconi]

America doesn't have social and cultural norms...

So you think a small religious group that mandates "Church discipline" for all LGBT individuals is integrating well into mainstream American society?

I don't think "Mainstream American Society" is a thing.

[Purgatio]

Funnily enough, my whole point of the argument I'm making is that multi-cultural societies are bad and promote unnecessary internal strife and division, and that mono-cultural societies (a) maximise choice for people of different cultural tribes whilst (b) improving communal harmony and national solidarity within the mono-cultural society. So yes, in a divided 1960s it would be best if pro-LGBT and anti-LGBT persons had separate countries of their own to avoid some of the violence (ie Stonewall) which took place owing to inter-cultural tensions and strife.

Now, however, the tables have turned and the US is overwhelmingly pro-LGBT. Hence, the better solution for social stability is the removal of Mormons from the country unless they are willing to change their beliefs and integrate or assimilate into America. Otherwise to allow them to stay without integrating is a recipe for cultural isolationism and ghettoisation.

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

[Purgatio]

So you think a small religious group that mandates "Church discipline" for all LGBT individuals is integrating well into mainstream American society?

I don't think "Mainstream American Society" is a thing.

If 67% of Americans believe that homosexual sex is morally acceptable, you don't consider that a mainstream opinion in American society?

[Telconi]

I don't think "Mainstream American Society" is a thing.

If 67% of Americans believe that homosexual sex is morally acceptable, you don't consider that a mainstream opinion in American society?

No, I cinsider it a common position amongst Americans. As previously stated, I do not believe there is an overall "American" culture, mainstream, or otherwise.

[Purgatio]

If 67% of Americans believe that homosexual sex is morally acceptable, you don't consider that a mainstream opinion in American society?

No, I cinsider it a common position amongst Americans. As previously stated, I do not believe there is an overall "American" culture, mainstream, or otherwise.

I think its slightly explanatorily-regressive to view each individual policy position as wholly-isolated from each other, and pretend that 'cultures' do not exist where cultural groups (defined by religion, language and upbringing and general worldview and way of life) do not exist, or to pretend that views on social and moral issues in society do not differ between one cultural tribe or another. The fact remains that most of the Mormon church's official positions are out of step with 'common position amongst Americans' and to keep them in America without making them assimilate or integrate properly is a recipe for cross-cultural tension, segregation and ghetto-isation to emerge in future.

[Telconi]

No, I cinsider it a common position amongst Americans. As previously stated, I do not believe there is an overall "American" culture, mainstream, or otherwise.

I think its slightly explanatorily-regressive to view each individual policy position as wholly-isolated from each other, and pretend that 'cultures' do not exist where cultural groups (defined by religion, language and upbringing and general worldview and way of life) do not exist, or to pretend that views on social and moral issues in society do not differ between one cultural tribe or another. The fact remains that most of the Mormon church's official positions are out of step with 'common position amongst Americans' and to keep them in America without making them assimilate or integrate properly is a recipe for cross-cultural tension, segregation and ghetto-isation to emerge in future.

Noted.

[Kowani]

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

Considering all these positions were the norm in America for decades and were only stigmatized because of the presence of multiple cultural groups, this question is a bit stacked.

[San Lumen]

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

Those where all mainstream positions in America at one point

[Telconi]

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

Well, single parenthood is bad, and there's nothing wrong with discouraging that, the others are what thy are, This is also ignoring the fact that the LDS church has other political views beyond those, and many of those do push for positive ideological progression.

[Luminesa]

It’s almost like having different cultural groups can bring about ideological progression...

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

...Are you saying to throw Mormons somewhere?

[Luminesa]

What positive ideological progression are you expecting from keeping anti-gay, anti-birth control (for unmarried persons) and anti-single parenthood Mormons in America? (all positions listed in the link in my original post)

Well, single parenthood is bad, and there's nothing wrong with discouraging that, the others are what thy are, This is also ignoring the fact that the LDS church has other political views beyond those, and many of those do push for positive ideological progression.

While it’s not ideal, I think the first step to maybe restoring the family as a cornerstone in America is to be more supportive of single parents. We can’t get rid of the issue immediately, and right now almost 70% of African-American children, for example, are growing up without dads. We need to build tighter communities and bring education closer to teachers and parents. This way we can focus on the communities and the families that need help the most.

[Abarri]

If it would help make multiculturalism work for the better, the parents, educators, and the community ought to coordinate regularly. Empowering single-parent families can help its members cope with society better.

...and right now almost 70% of African-American children, for example, are growing up without dads. We need to build tighter communities and bring education closer to teachers and parents. This way we can focus on the communities and the families that need help the most.

By the way, where did you obtain that bit of statistics?

[San Lumen]

If it would help make multiculturalism work for the better, the parents, educators, and the community ought to coordinate regularly. Empowering single-parent families can help its members cope with society better.

...and right now almost 70% of African-American children, for example, are growing up without dads. We need to build tighter communities and bring education closer to teachers and parents. This way we can focus on the communities and the families that need help the most.

By the way, where did you obtain that bit of statistics?

I think empowering single parents is a great idea. I too would like to know the source of that statistic.

[Telconi]

If it would help make multiculturalism work for the better, the parents, educators, and the community ought to coordinate regularly. Empowering single-parent families can help its members cope with society better.

By the way, where did you obtain that bit of statistics?

I think empowering single parents is a great idea. I too would like to know the source of that statistic.

Empowering them to not be single?