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Diversity and Multiculturalism II:Make Diversity Great Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Purgatio
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6423
Founded: May 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:39 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Because culture tends to be deeply-held, its an intricate part of a community's identity and sense of self. This goes about to the inherently-tribalistic nature of human beings, we attach our identity to certain 'group categories', including that of race and culture. Trying to 'change culture' is often a futile endeavour, you can't just beg a religious or cultural group to change their way of thinking about controversial moral, social issues like infant circumcision or child marriage or polygyny or homosexuality etc, its not a realistic approach to solve the problem of multi-culturalism.

Cultures have been changing since the dawn of man, it's not an impossible feat.


Sure, but (a) cultures generally don't change because of specific governmental policy or social engineering, they generally change in tandem with far wider social or technological trends occurring outside the control or ambit of governmental policy, and (b) these changes take time, how long do you think it will the Mormons, for example, to change their views on homosexuality? And that's just one example. What happens in the interim, when the cultural views of a group are not just out-of-step with the rest of mainstream society, but oftentimes in direct contradiction with those norms and civilisation values, is of course, tension, conflict and cross-cultural strife (sometimes manifesting in violence too and religious/cultural riots).

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Purgatio
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Founded: May 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Reikoku wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:In the psst they did. In terms of Japan, they heavily oppressed their ethnic minorities like the Ainu and Ryukuans.


Ainu and Ryukuans were more branches of the main Japanese ethnic group than they were independent minorities.


I suspect he was referring to the Yamato genocide of the Ainus during the colonisation of Hokkaido

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Kubumba Tribe
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Posts: 9444
Founded: Apr 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Reikoku wrote:
Ainu and Ryukuans were more branches of the main Japanese ethnic group than they were independent minorities.


I suspect he was referring to the Yamato genocide of the Ainus during the colonisation of Hokkaido

Actually I never knew about that :( I was just talking about the oppression of the Ainus and Ryukuans.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Purgatio
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Founded: May 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
I suspect he was referring to the Yamato genocide of the Ainus during the colonisation of Hokkaido

Actually I never knew about that :( I was just talking about the oppression of the Ainus and Ryukuans.


Maybe because 'genocide' is a term disputed by historians (precisely because there is legal debate about what counts as genocide in the first place). Instead of 'genocide' maybe its more accurate to say 'settler colonialism' against the Ainus in Hokkaido (which did involving killings of some Ainu communities, though again whether it amounts to genocide is an open historical and legal question).

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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:45 pm

Reikoku wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:In the psst they did. In terms of Japan, they heavily oppressed their ethnic minorities like the Ainu and Ryukuans.


Ainu and Ryukuans were more branches of the main Japanese ethnic group than they were independent minorities.


Kind of like the rich Anglo-Protestants of New York and New England oppressing the everloving shit out of poor Anglo-Protestants of West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio during the Gilded Age.
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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:26 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
The Department of Education and the Environment both make policy.

True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.
San Lumen wrote:The people of Minnesota disagree as do AG Keith Ellison and Congresswoman IIhan Omar.

What about them?
San Lumen wrote:We are not a theocracy.

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.


So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?
Purgatio wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Cultures have been changing since the dawn of man, it's not an impossible feat.


Sure, but (a) cultures generally don't change because of specific governmental policy or social engineering, they generally change in tandem with far wider social or technological trends occurring outside the control or ambit of governmental policy, and (b) these changes take time, how long do you think it will the Mormons, for example, to change their views on homosexuality? And that's just one example. What happens in the interim, when the cultural views of a group are not just out-of-step with the rest of mainstream society, but oftentimes in direct contradiction with those norms and civilisation values, is of course, tension, conflict and cross-cultural strife (sometimes manifesting in violence too and religious/cultural riots).


Cultures can change. Salt Lake City has a anti discrimination law that includes homosexuality

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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:55 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.

What about them?

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.


So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?
Purgatio wrote:
Sure, but (a) cultures generally don't change because of specific governmental policy or social engineering, they generally change in tandem with far wider social or technological trends occurring outside the control or ambit of governmental policy, and (b) these changes take time, how long do you think it will the Mormons, for example, to change their views on homosexuality? And that's just one example. What happens in the interim, when the cultural views of a group are not just out-of-step with the rest of mainstream society, but oftentimes in direct contradiction with those norms and civilisation values, is of course, tension, conflict and cross-cultural strife (sometimes manifesting in violence too and religious/cultural riots).


Cultures can change. Salt Lake City has a anti discrimination law that includes homosexuality


SLC's anti-discrimination law isn't really evidence of a culture changing...
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Kubumba Tribe
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Founded: Apr 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:46 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.

What about them?

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.


So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?

Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.
Last edited by Kubumba Tribe on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Valgora
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Posts: 6632
Founded: Mar 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Valgora » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:22 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?

Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.

Luckily, most Muslims ain't like you.
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Luminesa
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Luminesa » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:27 am

San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.

What about them?

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.


So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?
Purgatio wrote:
Sure, but (a) cultures generally don't change because of specific governmental policy or social engineering, they generally change in tandem with far wider social or technological trends occurring outside the control or ambit of governmental policy, and (b) these changes take time, how long do you think it will the Mormons, for example, to change their views on homosexuality? And that's just one example. What happens in the interim, when the cultural views of a group are not just out-of-step with the rest of mainstream society, but oftentimes in direct contradiction with those norms and civilisation values, is of course, tension, conflict and cross-cultural strife (sometimes manifesting in violence too and religious/cultural riots).


Cultures can change. Salt Lake City has a anti discrimination law that includes homosexuality

That doesn’t mean hate crimes don’t happen.
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Purgatio
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Founded: May 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Purgatio » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:12 am

San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.

What about them?

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.


So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?
Purgatio wrote:
Sure, but (a) cultures generally don't change because of specific governmental policy or social engineering, they generally change in tandem with far wider social or technological trends occurring outside the control or ambit of governmental policy, and (b) these changes take time, how long do you think it will the Mormons, for example, to change their views on homosexuality? And that's just one example. What happens in the interim, when the cultural views of a group are not just out-of-step with the rest of mainstream society, but oftentimes in direct contradiction with those norms and civilisation values, is of course, tension, conflict and cross-cultural strife (sometimes manifesting in violence too and religious/cultural riots).


Cultures can change. Salt Lake City has a anti discrimination law that includes homosexuality


Or....maybe Salt Lake City has an anti-discrimination law precisely because, in the absence of that law, rampant homophobic discrimination would result? I don't see how it disproves my example.

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Kubumba Tribe
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Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:14 am

Valgora wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.

Luckily, most Muslims ain't like you.

Actually most Muslims support Shari'ah, and not governing without the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is a part of Shari'ah.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Telconi
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Posts: 34903
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:07 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Valgora wrote:Luckily, most Muslims ain't like you.

Actually most Muslims support Shari'ah, and not governing without the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is a part of Shari'ah.


Source? Also, yiiiiikes...
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:11 am

Sharia law, like all religious law can fuck off. And if you want sharia law, hop on a plane to Saudi Arabia.
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New yugoslavaia
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Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:25 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Sharia law, like all religious law can fuck off. And if you want sharia law, hop on a plane to Saudi Arabia.


Let's give communism another shot.
...
...
Ok, maybe that's too far. Secular egalitarian Socialism?
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Telconi
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Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:26 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Sharia law, like all religious law can fuck off. And if you want sharia law, hop on a plane to Saudi Arabia.


Let's give communism another shot.
...
...
Ok, maybe that's too far. Secular egalitarian Socialism?


Can we not please?
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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81289
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:33 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?

Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.


Well obviously those that ran disagree.
Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Valgora wrote:Luckily, most Muslims ain't like you.

Actually most Muslims support Shari'ah, and not governing without the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is a part of Shari'ah.

Id like a source please
Purgatio wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
So a Muslim in Europe or the Americas should not run for office because they cannot use the Quran as a basis for the law or their polices if elected?

Cultures can change. Salt Lake City has a anti discrimination law that includes homosexuality


Or....maybe Salt Lake City has an anti-discrimination law precisely because, in the absence of that law, rampant homophobic discrimination would result? I don't see how it disproves my example.


Salt Lake City happens to be the most liberal and diverse part of Utah.

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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:38 am

San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.


Well obviously those that ran disagree.
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Actually most Muslims support Shari'ah, and not governing without the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is a part of Shari'ah.

Id like a source please
Purgatio wrote:
Or....maybe Salt Lake City has an anti-discrimination law precisely because, in the absence of that law, rampant homophobic discrimination would result? I don't see how it disproves my example.


Salt Lake City happens to be the most liberal and diverse part of Utah.


I still don't see how this has anything to do with cultural change...
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ANTI:
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-Government Overreach
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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:41 am

Telconi wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Well obviously those that ran disagree.
Id like a source please

Salt Lake City happens to be the most liberal and diverse part of Utah.


I still don't see how this has anything to do with cultural change...

Utah also has a law banning housing discrimination regarding LGBT people as well as employment. The Mormon church basically runs the state so the fact it has a law like that shows the church has changed.

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Telconi
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Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:42 am

San Lumen wrote:
Telconi wrote:
I still don't see how this has anything to do with cultural change...

Utah also has a law banning housing discrimination regarding LGBT people as well as employment. The Mormon church basically runs the state so the fact it has a law like that shows the church has changed.


No they don't, and no it hasn't. He LDS church is still very much against gay rights.
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PRO:
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ANTI:
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-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81289
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:02 pm

Telconi wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Utah also has a law banning housing discrimination regarding LGBT people as well as employment. The Mormon church basically runs the state so the fact it has a law like that shows the church has changed.


No they don't, and no it hasn't. He LDS church is still very much against gay rights.

Then you dont know much about Utah. How did that managed to get passed then?

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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:08 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Telconi wrote:
No they don't, and no it hasn't. He LDS church is still very much against gay rights.

Then you dont know much about Utah. How did that managed to get passed then?


Yes, and I suppose you're the expert on Utah politics. :roll:
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PRO:
-Weapons Rights
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-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

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Loben
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Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:59 pm

San lumen is apparently omnipresent.

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Kubumba Tribe
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9444
Founded: Apr 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:05 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Actually most Muslims support Shari'ah, and not governing without the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is a part of Shari'ah.


Source? Also, yiiiiikes...

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Sharia law, like all religious law can f off. And if you want sharia law, hop on a plane to Saudi Arabia.

You're not gonna find Shari'ah over there. At least not 100%.
San Lumen wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Correct, and this include other parts of the world as well.


Well obviously those that ran disagree.

I'm talking about halal and haram, not likes and dislikes.
San Lumen wrote:Id like a source please

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/
San Lumen wrote:The Mormon church basically runs the state

Prove it
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81289
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:27 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Source? Also, yiiiiikes...

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Sharia law, like all religious law can f off. And if you want sharia law, hop on a plane to Saudi Arabia.

You're not gonna find Shari'ah over there. At least not 100%.
San Lumen wrote:
Well obviously those that ran disagree.

I'm talking about halal and haram, not likes and dislikes.
San Lumen wrote:Id like a source please

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/
San Lumen wrote:The Mormon church basically runs the state

Prove it

Utah was founded by the Mormon church. They were seeking a means to practice their religion free from prosecution.

Read the history section of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah
Last edited by San Lumen on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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