Diversity and Multiculturalism II:Make Diversity Great Again

[San Lumen]

Putin thanks you. In Russia the media is nothing more than propaganda for the Kremlin.

And in the US the media is nothing more than propaganda for the oligarchs. It is a matter of what regulations are supported. You're preaching far-right capitalist memes when it suits your agenda, I think it's clear you're only left wing when it lets you lash out at the west, and when right wing ideology harms the west, that's what you suddenly go for instead.

You're peddling anarcho-capitalist rhetoric all of a sudden. Why is that?

I have no idea what your talking about.

[Olerand]

I do not understand why. I gather in your view he should not have even run for the office? His term does begin until January 2nd.

He should not have run for office, correct. No Muslim who lives in a country not governing by Shari'ah should run for any kind of government position that deals with law.

An excellent way forward for integration. I'm sure the feeling of exclusion amongst Muslims can only decrease from this.

I, along with two thirds of the British public, do not support a free press. We support tight regulations on the press. It sounds like you're comfortable peddling the view of the far-right capitalists when it suits an anti-western agenda.

Putin thanks you. In Russia the media is nothing more than propaganda for the Kremlin.

As if there is only America's First Amendement and Russia Today in the world... Good Lord...

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I wasn't talking about theocracy. I just said that Muslims should be running for kufr offices.

What the heck is a kufr office?

A place in government that involves governing (specifically enacting laws) without using the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Kufr is Arabic for disbelief.

[Ostroeuropa]

Ban circumcision.
Ban gender segregation.
Ban faith schools.
Crack down on the press and institute a watch dog that will fine them if they persistently misrepresent a topic (For instance, screaming "Terrorism" over and over about Muslims without noting that they do not commit the amount of Terrorism the press is implying. The watch dog would issue a warning that articles from a paper that has persistently misrepresented a demographic that for the next X months on the topic must contain a stat like "They commit X% of the terrorism." instead of not informing people of that while implying they commit most/all of it. Expand this out to DV, rape and so on, as well. Failure to comply will result in compulsory front page clarifications and fines, failure to comply with that will lead to closure.)
Stop funding the Sauds and freeze their influence in our country, freeze their funding of mosques and organizations and so on, and begin openly discussing with moderate muslims how the Sauds are dividing us.

Those are some measures to begin with.

As a Yank, I don't see banning circumcision as necessary, not even in Europe tbh. I know it's not a prevalent thing across the Atlantic, but really, it's harmless from a societal perspective.

Banning gender segregation sounds great on paper, in fact, I fully support that, but I'm sure you'd agree that there are hundreds of caveats that have to be addressed on a case by case basis. (IE, what to do with All Men schools, All Women clubs of sorts etc).

Banning faith schools, too, seems a little hamfisted and reactionary. In my country, for instance, there is a plethora of Christian and Jewish schools, for instance, and they still have to follow a strict curriculum, while having some leeway to teach their religious faiths. I attended Catholic School for over half my life, and never had any issues with it. When it comes to Islamic schools, I'd argue that the same regulations, restrictions and curriculum guidelines should be put in place as they are for Christian and Jewish schools. After all, when those rules are broken (at least in the US), there are certainly hefty consequences.

Cracking down on the press is an immediate nope from me. I mean, the right to a free press should be held as sacrosanct and shouldn't be infringed upon. Period.

Couldn't agree more in regards to Saudi Arabian organizations and supposed "charities." The influence Saudi groups have in many parts of the developed world should sound off alarms.

Circumcision is responsible for at least 15% of all sudden infant death syndrome according to studies.
https://www.biorxiv.org/node/103753.full

So around 375 US deaths of children per year.
The total murder rate for children in the US is about 1,494 per year.

"Not a big issue."
Okay.

I'm glad we agree on banning segregation.

The US does not have the same issues europe is having with this problem, and so different solutions are needed such as banning faith schools.

I'm not interested in an anarcho-capitalist press like the US has, nor in indulging ancap memes as being valid.

[San Lumen]

What the heck is a kufr office?

A place in government that involves governing (specifically enacting laws) without using the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Kufr is Arabic for disbelief.

What elected office does not entail making policy or law? The US isnt a country where one can implement laws from the Quran. The state constitution is supreme in the state and the US constitution is supreme law of the land.

I welcome Muslims in public office. Its about time they had more representation in government. To be perfectly clear i dont care what someone's religion, race or ethnic background is when running for office . If they are best for the job they ought to get the nomination and win the general election.

[Purgatio]

As a Yank, I don't see banning circumcision as necessary, not even in Europe tbh. I know it's not a prevalent thing across the Atlantic, but really, it's harmless from a societal perspective.

Banning gender segregation sounds great on paper, in fact, I fully support that, but I'm sure you'd agree that there are hundreds of caveats that have to be addressed on a case by case basis. (IE, what to do with All Men schools, All Women clubs of sorts etc).

Banning faith schools, too, seems a little hamfisted and reactionary. In my country, for instance, there is a plethora of Christian and Jewish schools, for instance, and they still have to follow a strict curriculum, while having some leeway to teach their religious faiths. I attended Catholic School for over half my life, and never had any issues with it. When it comes to Islamic schools, I'd argue that the same regulations, restrictions and curriculum guidelines should be put in place as they are for Christian and Jewish schools. After all, when those rules are broken (at least in the US), there are certainly hefty consequences.

Cracking down on the press is an immediate nope from me. I mean, the right to a free press should be held as sacrosanct and shouldn't be infringed upon. Period.

Couldn't agree more in regards to Saudi Arabian organizations and supposed "charities." The influence Saudi groups have in many parts of the developed world should sound off alarms.

Circumcision is responsible for at least 15% of all sudden infant death syndrome according to studies.
https://www.biorxiv.org/node/103753.full

So around 375 US deaths of children per year.
The total murder rate for children in the US is about 1,494 per year.

"Not a big issue."
Okay.

I'm glad we agree on banning segregation.

The US does not have the same issues europe is having with this problem, and so different solutions are needed such as banning faith schools.

I'm not interested in an anarcho-capitalist press like the US has, nor in indulging ancap memes as being valid.

Regardless of any deaths or injury caused, to circumcise an infant incapable of providing consent to a permanent physical change to his body is simply morally-reprehensible in the extreme. Infant circumcision ought to be illegal and parents who attempt it thrown into prison.

[Ors Might]

And in the US the media is nothing more than propaganda for the oligarchs. It is a matter of what regulations are supported. You're preaching far-right capitalist memes when it suits your agenda, I think it's clear you're only left wing when it lets you lash out at the west, and when right wing ideology harms the west, that's what you suddenly go for instead.

You're peddling anarcho-capitalist rhetoric all of a sudden. Why is that?

I have no idea what your talking about.

If I’m not misrepresenting him, Ostro is pointing out that letting the press be absolutely free makes it vulnerable to being bought by the highest bidder. Like in business, reasonable regulations are necessary to guarantee that it works for the best interest of the people.

[Ostroeuropa]

Circumcision is responsible for at least 15% of all sudden infant death syndrome according to studies.
https://www.biorxiv.org/node/103753.full

So around 375 US deaths of children per year.
The total murder rate for children in the US is about 1,494 per year.

"Not a big issue."
Okay.

I'm glad we agree on banning segregation.

The US does not have the same issues europe is having with this problem, and so different solutions are needed such as banning faith schools.

I'm not interested in an anarcho-capitalist press like the US has, nor in indulging ancap memes as being valid.

Regardless of any deaths or injury caused, to circumcise an infant incapable of providing consent to a permanent physical change to his body is simply morally-reprehensible in the extreme. Infant circumcision ought to be illegal and parents who attempt it thrown into prison.

It is, yes, and such cultures that require the practice should not be tolerated and should be forced to modernize or leave. Collective child sacrifice to appease a bloodthirsty god however is a more obvious and potent reason to decide a culture should not exist in your country.

if this were the case that these people left all their children on an altar to starve out until the weakest of them died and then they took the rest back home, we'd have banned their archaic religious practice already.
They merely use a thousand separate altars, and knives to their genitals, instead of starving.

Functionally the children are still dead. They know when participating in this ritual that it will kill the weakest children. They do so anyway.

[Purgatio]

Regardless of any deaths or injury caused, to circumcise an infant incapable of providing consent to a permanent physical change to his body is simply morally-reprehensible in the extreme. Infant circumcision ought to be illegal and parents who attempt it thrown into prison.

It is, yes, and such cultures that require the practice should not be tolerated and should be forced to modernize or leave. Collective child sacrifice however is a more obvious and potent reason to decide a culture should not exist in your country.

While I'm generally wary of cultural generalisations, a culture that actively tolerates and promotes non-consensual infant mutilation as a socio-cultural norm ought to be regarded with suspicion in any civilised society.

[San Lumen]

It is, yes, and such cultures that require the practice should not be tolerated and should be forced to modernize or leave. Collective child sacrifice however is a more obvious and potent reason to decide a culture should not exist in your country.

While I'm generally wary of cultural generalisations, a culture that actively tolerates and promotes non-consensual infant mutilation as a socio-cultural norm ought to be regarded with suspicion in any civilised society.

Judaism practices circumcision as well. Should they be viewed with suspicion too?

[Ostroeuropa]

While I'm generally wary of cultural generalisations, a culture that actively tolerates and promotes non-consensual infant mutilation as a socio-cultural norm ought to be regarded with suspicion in any civilised society.

Judaism practices circumcision as well. Should they be viewed with suspicion too?

The mutilation and child sacrifice aspects, certainly.

[Ors Might]

While I'm generally wary of cultural generalisations, a culture that actively tolerates and promotes non-consensual infant mutilation as a socio-cultural norm ought to be regarded with suspicion in any civilised society.

Judaism practices circumcision as well. Should they be viewed with suspicion too?

Judaic culture, as far as in it practices genital mutilation upon children, should be viewed with suspicion.

[Purgatio]

While I'm generally wary of cultural generalisations, a culture that actively tolerates and promotes non-consensual infant mutilation as a socio-cultural norm ought to be regarded with suspicion in any civilised society.

Judaism practices circumcision as well. Should they be viewed with suspicion too?

Yes, for precisely the reasons I mentioned.

EDIT: Or more accurately, reason. Because a culture that promotes infant genital mutilation as a social norm is incompatible with the norms and values of a civilised society that values basic bodily sovereignty and human dignity.

[Bear Stearns]

Ban circumcision.
Ban gender segregation.
Ban faith schools.
Crack down on the press and institute a watch dog that will fine them if they persistently misrepresent a topic (For instance, screaming "Terrorism" over and over about Muslims without noting that they do not commit the amount of Terrorism the press is implying. The watch dog would issue a warning that articles from a paper that has persistently misrepresented a demographic that for the next X months on the topic must contain a stat like "They commit X% of the terrorism." instead of not informing people of that while implying they commit most/all of it. Expand this out to DV, rape and so on, as well. Failure to comply will result in compulsory front page clarifications and fines, failure to comply with that will lead to closure.)
Stop funding the Sauds and freeze their influence in our country, freeze their funding of mosques and organizations and so on, and begin openly discussing with moderate muslims how the Sauds are dividing us.

Those are some measures to begin with.

Sounds like you don;t believe in a free press

I do not support Turner Broadcasting, Hearst, Comcast, Disney, and Fox Entertainment Group.

People act like these corporations are innocent, noble small-time journalists exposing the machine. They are the machine.

[San Lumen]

Judaism practices circumcision as well. Should they be viewed with suspicion too?

Yes, for precisely the reasons I mentioned.

EDIT: Or more accurately, reason. Because a culture that promotes infant genital mutilation as a social norm is incompatible with the norms and values of a civilised society that values basic bodily sovereignty and human dignity.

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

[Bear Stearns]

Yes, for precisely the reasons I mentioned.

EDIT: Or more accurately, reason. Because a culture that promotes infant genital mutilation as a social norm is incompatible with the norms and values of a civilised society that values basic bodily sovereignty and human dignity.

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

I agree. Let's outlaw some cultures.

[Telconi]

Yes, for precisely the reasons I mentioned.

EDIT: Or more accurately, reason. Because a culture that promotes infant genital mutilation as a social norm is incompatible with the norms and values of a civilised society that values basic bodily sovereignty and human dignity.

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

Like outlawing them???

[El-Amin Caliphate]

A place in government that involves governing (specifically enacting laws) without using the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Kufr is Arabic for disbelief.

What elected office does not entail making policy or law?

Department of education, department of environment, etc.

The US isnt a country where one can implement laws from the Quran. The state constitution is supreme in the state and the US constitution is supreme law of the land.

Hence why Muslims shouldn't be in kufr offices.

I welcome Muslims in public office. Its about time they had more representation in government. To be perfectly clear i dont care what someone's religion, race or ethnic background is when running for office . If they are best for the job they ought to get the nomination and win the general election.

False. What's halal is halal and what's haram is haram. Ruling by kufr and not Al-Islam is haram and should be stopped.

[San Lumen]

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

I agree. Let's outlaw some cultures.

We should not be outlawing cultures. It is one thing to outlaw a specific practice it is quite another to outlaw a whole culture

[Purgatio]

Yes, for precisely the reasons I mentioned.

EDIT: Or more accurately, reason. Because a culture that promotes infant genital mutilation as a social norm is incompatible with the norms and values of a civilised society that values basic bodily sovereignty and human dignity.

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

Because culture tends to be deeply-held, its an intricate part of a community's identity and sense of self. This goes about to the inherently-tribalistic nature of human beings, we attach our identity to certain 'group categories', including that of race and culture. Trying to 'change culture' is often a futile endeavour, you can't just beg a religious or cultural group to change their way of thinking about controversial moral, social issues like infant circumcision or child marriage or polygyny or homosexuality etc, its not a realistic approach to solve the problem of multi-culturalism.

[Kubumba Tribe]

How about instead of viewing with suspicion trying to change minds or trying to outlaw it? Viewing groups with suspicion has led to many terrible things throughout history.

Because culture tends to be deeply-held, its an intricate part of a community's identity and sense of self. This goes about to the inherently-tribalistic nature of human beings, we attach our identity to certain 'group categories', including that of race and culture. Trying to 'change culture' is often a futile endeavour, you can't just beg a religious or cultural group to change their way of thinking about controversial moral, social issues like infant circumcision or child marriage or polygyny or homosexuality etc, its not a realistic approach to solve the problem of multi-culturalism.

Cultures have been changing since the dawn of man, it's not an impossible feat.

[San Lumen]

What elected office does not entail making policy or law?

Department of education, department of environment, etc.

The US isnt a country where one can implement laws from the Quran. The state constitution is supreme in the state and the US constitution is supreme law of the land.

Hence why Muslims shouldn't be in kufr offices.

I welcome Muslims in public office. Its about time they had more representation in government. To be perfectly clear i dont care what someone's religion, race or ethnic background is when running for office . If they are best for the job they ought to get the nomination and win the general election.

False. What's halal is halal and what's haram is haram. Ruling by kufr and not Al-Islam is haram and should be stopped.

The Department of Education and the Environment both make policy.

The people of Minnesota disagree as do AG Keith Ellison and Congresswoman IIhan Omar.

We are not a theocracy.

[Bear Stearns]

I agree. Let's outlaw some cultures.

We should not be outlawing cultures. It is one thing to outlaw a specific practice it is quite another to outlaw a whole culture

Where do you draw the line? What if the culture is so full of bad practices that by outlawing each practice, you basically outlaw practicing that culture?

[Reikoku]

You said attempts to impose a single culture end violently. Largely culturally-homogenous societies like South Korea and Japan exist which do not require violence by the State to maintain its culturally-homogenous character, hence disproving your prior claim.

In the psst they did. In terms of Japan, they heavily oppressed their ethnic minorities like the Ainu and Ryukuans.

Ainu and Ryukuans were more branches of the main Japanese ethnic group than they were independent minorities.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Department of education, department of environment, etc.

Hence why Muslims shouldn't be in kufr offices.

False. What's halal is halal and what's haram is haram. Ruling by kufr and not Al-Islam is haram and should be stopped.

The Department of Education and the Environment both make policy.

True, but their policies don't necessarily interfere with Al-Islam.

The people of Minnesota disagree as do AG Keith Ellison and Congresswoman IIhan Omar.

What about them?

We are not a theocracy.

Again, I never said that. I'm still not talking about theocracies.