Bill Maher on sexual harassment

[Benuty]

Where your sense of identity; in this case, ideological identity as a liberal; guides the political opinions you form, instead of forming political opinions based on what makes sense and adjusting your identity accordingly.

I'm not a liberal, though. And I don't think you know what identity politics are or, really, how my politics work.

So... swing and miss.

For what it's worth, that's not quite how it came across to me.

I couldn't care less if Maher, Yiannopoulos or Shapiro are "left" or "right". They are all twats in their own right with stupid opinions and awful behavior. They could be members of the Democratic Socialists of America and I'd still think they're garbage.

This party is garbage simply by not embracing competition and wiping out the democratic party in a good old-fashioned purge.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

It was a perfectly reasonable assumption, though, since divergence from tradition is part of the very definition of the word liberal.

You're going to have to explain yourself better, because you're not making much sense to me... and you still haven't shown a very good understanding of what "identity politics" means.

Also, how do you square your understanding of what "liberal" means with the fact that we Westerners are now living in societies in which liberalism is the ruling political tradition?

That they're using them wrong. The point of the word conservative was to imply they're conserving tradition; liberal to imply "not conservative."

It's possible I myself am using "identity politics" comparably wrong, though. I've always gone by the context in which it's used instead of its actual definition. (Which for what it's worth appears to be in dispute.)

I love how you've poisoned the well against any sort of scientific evidence that could put your worldview to question. You'd make a fine young Earth creationist with that lazy anti-intellectualism.

Young Earth creationism is a tad more absurd than the idea that business competition is reflective of consumer demand, don't you think?

Here's a thought experiment for you. Suppose businessperson A sold you what you wanted, and businessperson B told you what you wanted. Now suppose they each did the same for every other customer. Even if businessperson B managed to convince some of them, he couldn't convince them all, and wasted time businessperson A can use to make more sales and gain an edge. Why would you expect anything different?

If anything, to deny that evolution applies to business competition is far more analogous to being creationist.

[Jerzylvania]

What is with you and your urge to create so many damn threads?

He's always wanted to see his name up in lights? Too bad it's totally unreadable.

Still trying to figure out the rationale for the Ban the Prom thread.

[Farnhamia]

What is with you and your urge to create so many damn threads?

He's always wanted to see his name up in lights? Too bad it's totally unreadable.

Still trying to figure out the rationale for the Ban the Prom thread.

Wait, Bill Maher started that thread? *gives you the Hairy Eyeball^TM for discussing what's his name*

[Jerzylvania]

He's always wanted to see his name up in lights? Too bad it's totally unreadable.

Still trying to figure out the rationale for the Ban the Prom thread.

Wait, Bill Maher started that thread? *gives you the Hairy Eyeball^TM for discussing what's his name*

New rules, Farn?

[Liriena]

You're going to have to explain yourself better, because you're not making much sense to me... and you still haven't shown a very good understanding of what "identity politics" means.

Also, how do you square your understanding of what "liberal" means with the fact that we Westerners are now living in societies in which liberalism is the ruling political tradition?

That they're using them wrong. The point of the word conservative was to imply they're conserving tradition; liberal to imply "not conservative."

It's possible I myself am using "identity politics" comparably wrong, though. I've always gone by the context in which it's used instead of its actual definition. (Which for what it's worth appears to be in dispute.)

Even "by the context", it doesn't make much sense in this particular discussion, unless you were working under the assumption that my objections to certain aforementioned individuals are solely due to them identifying with political movements different from those I might identify with, rather than being due to a distaste for their specific ideas and behaviors since they contradict the specific ideas and behaviors that make sense to me.

I love how you've poisoned the well against any sort of scientific evidence that could put your worldview to question. You'd make a fine young Earth creationist with that lazy anti-intellectualism.

Young Earth creationism is a tad more absurd than the idea that business competition is reflective of consumer demand, don't you think?

Here's a thought experiment for you. Suppose businessperson A sold you what you wanted, and businessperson B told you what you wanted. Now suppose they each did the same for every other customer. Even if businessperson B managed to convince some of them, he couldn't convince them all, and wasted time businessperson A can use to make more sales and gain an edge. Why would you expect anything different?

If anything, to deny that evolution applies to business competition is far more analogous to being creationist.

What point are you trying to prove with your thought experiment?

Also, this is not about business competition. This is about the relationship between the American culture industry and sexuality, and more specifically how the American culture industry's common depictions of romance and sexuality appeal to some women and why.

[Farnhamia]

Wait, Bill Maher started that thread? *gives you the Hairy Eyeball^TM for discussing what's his name*

New rules, Farn?

No. There's been a rash of "discussing the person who started the thread instead of the topic" lately.

[Pacifica Founder]

I am, for what it's worth, a little uneasy with Bill's criticism of the "you can only ask this co-worker out once" rule. If one no is not enough, what is?

I failed to convince a coworker of mine at an hourly job in college to give me a chance for over a year. I'd guess it is possible I got into the double digits on attempts. Certainly more than 5. We've now been together for three years and lived together for two. She's ready for marriage and I'd rather get some stuff lined out as far as professional certifications and other things first. But overall we're very happy. I get the feeling she probably never would have taken the first offer. She felt better that I stuck around and remained interested for quite a while even though I continued to date others off and on.

I think Maher is dead on with his concerns about a lot of this stuff. There's a completely respectful and romantic way to show your persistence and interest. It's a matter of substance and form and not something that should have zero tolerance.

Imagine being a female and having to decide within the first few conversations with a male if he's a suitable to be a romantic partner. If you choose no and he should be yes, it will never be socially acceptable for him to be interested in you again. That's a dumb system on its face. And honestly, it sounds like it would put a lot of pressure on the female which defeats the whole point.

Our generation is just terrible at social interaction, especially in the sense that we feel the need to try to set specific rules on social interaction. It's far more fluid than that. The broad principles like communicating honestly, being respectful, listening, etc are far more important than any specific do's and don'ts - and Feminism is rapidly moving toward caring about the latter from my standpoint.

[Jerzylvania]

New rules, Farn?

No. There's been a rash of "discussing the person who started the thread instead of the topic" lately.

Mmmm. That old bugaboo. I think I get it.

[Summertimequestionswine]

This is what women want; but only from the men they want it from. Problem is, we don't know which one we are.

Yes you do.

Most of us know we aren't Brad Pitt or Shemar Moore or Chris Hemsworth or the Pringles Guy. You know who you are, and who you aren't.

If you're Don Knotts, accept that you're Don Knotts dude. There's nothing wrong with being Don Knotts, except maybe the macular degeneration...

[Jerzylvania]

This is what women want; but only from the men they want it from. Problem is, we don't know which one we are.

Yes you do.

Most of us know we aren't Brad Pitt or Shemar Moore or Chris Hemsworth or the Pringles Guy. You know who you are, and who you aren't.

If you're Don Knotts, accept that you're Don Knotts dude. There's nothing wrong with being Don Knotts, except maybe the macular degeneration...

Don Knotts played Mr. Limpet in The Incredible Mr. Limpet. Taken quite literally, Don's not exactly the best example here.

[Costa Fierro]

Why doesn't he and men like him know which one they are? Because he can't bring himself to, you know, ask?

Walking up to random women and going "do I turn you on" is not recommended.

[Myrensis]

Now, let's address the "choice quotes" in the OP.

"Men made most of these movies, but women bought most of the tickets." (25sec in)

And he's trying to imply that...?

That media influences culture, and that it's overwhelmingly women who drive the Rom Com genre and turn things like Twilight and 50 Shades into global phenomenons...when the general theme of all of those movies is "Being a creepy obsessive controlling manipulative stalker and abusing any power you have over them is the best way to get the girl, they love it!".

"This is what women want; but only from the men they want it from. Problem is, we don't know which one we are." (2min in)

Why doesn't he and men like him know which one they are? Because he can't bring himself to, you know, ask?

Uh, that's kind of his point though, the message of these movies that women seem to love is that you don't ask them for their opinions or emotions, you just insert yourself into their lives and keep manipulating and stalking them until they realize they loved you all along!

Hence the broader point that women complain about these representations in Hollywood and then continue throwing obscene amounts of money at them to keep making them.

[Liriena]

Why doesn't he and men like him know which one they are? Because he can't bring himself to, you know, ask?

Walking up to random women and going "do I turn you on" is not recommended.

How about asking your female friends, if you have any? It may not be reliable sampling in scientific terms, but it's as good a way as any to get at least a glimpse into how real women feel about real men, rather than imaginary ones.

How about giving empathy a shot, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes?

Now, let's address the "choice quotes" in the OP.

"Men made most of these movies, but women bought most of the tickets." (25sec in)

And he's trying to imply that...?

That media influences culture, and that it's overwhelmingly women who drive the Rom Com genre and turn things like Twilight and 50 Shades into global phenomenons...when the general theme of all of those movies is "Being a creepy obsessive controlling manipulative stalker and abusing any power you have over them is the best way to get the girl, they love it!".

All of which has been criticized by many women themselves. And despite the obvious influence such cultural products might have, I have yet to see anyone demonstrating a direct causal link between the fantasies in those cultural products and some sort of widespread female acceptance of predatory sexual behavior in real men in everyday life.

Your phrasing itself shows a problem in your approach. You are speaking from the perspective of a man who thinks that the male behavior shown in those products is supposed to set an example for you, that it's been created with you as its target audience.

Edward Cullen and Christian Grey don't exist to be your pick-up artistry coaches. They are not there to teach you how to seduce women. They were not created for an idealized male audience that would follow their example. If you read or watch those characters, and your reaction is to frame them in terms of "this is what women want you, real-life men, to do", then you're in trouble.

When I read Thor fanfiction in which Thor is a rough, predatory Dom, my reaction isn't "this is how all real-life male tops should behave whether I ask them to or not". My reaction is far more likely to be "this is a hot fantasy that could work as roleplay with a partner of my choosing".

"This is what women want; but only from the men they want it from. Problem is, we don't know which one we are." (2min in)

Why doesn't he and men like him know which one they are? Because he can't bring himself to, you know, ask?

Uh, that's kind of his point though, the message of these movies that women seem to love is that you don't ask them for their opinions or emotions, you just insert yourself into their lives and keep manipulating and stalking them until they realize they loved you all along!

Hence the broader point that women complain about these representations in Hollywood and then continue throwing obscene amounts of money at them to keep making them.

That argument of yours only works if we continue to accept your blatant overgeneralization. You are acting as if preference for Twilight and Fifty Shades was an inherent or universal female trait.

Furthermore, you are still failing to take into consideration the distinction between fantasy and reality.

Also, there is not much of a historical analysis going on here. Let's assume that you are right, and women in general enjoy the idea of masculinity presented in those movies to the point of secretly wanting it in real life too... Why? Why is that? Has it always been this way?

[Costa Fierro]

How about asking your female friends, if you have any? It may not be reliable sampling in scientific terms, but it's as good a way as any to get at least a glimpse into how real women feel about real men, rather than imaginary ones.

How about giving empathy a shot, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes?

Two of the worst things you can do. Also had a lovely chuckle at the "real women".

[Benuty]

How about asking your female friends, if you have any? It may not be reliable sampling in scientific terms, but it's as good a way as any to get at least a glimpse into how real women feel about real men, rather than imaginary ones.

How about giving empathy a shot, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes?

Two of the worst things you can do. Also had a lovely chuckle at the "real women".

So Liriena is a spy for the robotic empire confirmed?

[Liriena]

How about asking your female friends, if you have any? It may not be reliable sampling in scientific terms, but it's as good a way as any to get at least a glimpse into how real women feel about real men, rather than imaginary ones.

How about giving empathy a shot, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes?

Two of the worst things you can do.

Because...?

Also had a lovely chuckle at the "real women".

*shrug*

So Liriena is a spy for the robotic empire confirmed?

Of course not. I serve our secret reptilian overlords, you fools.

[Benuty]

Two of the worst things you can do.

Because...?

Also had a lovely chuckle at the "real women".

*shrug*

So Liriena is a spy for the robotic empire confirmed?

Of course not. I serve our secret reptilian overlords, you fools.

Okay, you messed up the quote there a bit Liriena...I only said the stuff in the last quote the others were Costa.

[Liriena]

Because...?


*shrug*


Of course not. I serve our secret reptilian overlords, you fools.

Okay, you messed up the quote there a bit Liriena...I only said the stuff in the last quote the others were Costa.

Yeah, I messed up. Accurate use of copypasting is harder than it looks, apparently.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

How about asking your female friends, if you have any?

Same reason surveys aren't taken seriously; women are just as capable of lying as anybody else.

[Liriena]

How about asking your female friends, if you have any?

Same reason surveys aren't taken seriously; women are just as capable of lying as anybody else.

Heh, I'd recognize that wilfull ignorance of social research anywhere. How are you, Sargon of Akkad? ;3

[Benuty]

Same reason surveys aren't taken seriously; women are just as capable of lying as anybody else.

Heh, I'd recognize that willful ignorance of social research anywhere. How are you, Sargon of Akkad? ;3

Nothing wrong with skepticism surveys depending on who is doing them. I would more likely trust a survey from Pew than say the American Family Association.

[Costa Fierro]

I think Maher is dead on with his concerns about a lot of this stuff. There's a completely respectful and romantic way to show your persistence and interest. It's a matter of substance and form and not something that should have zero tolerance.

The thing with this is, not that many men persist. If a woman doesn't show a man interest, the man will simply go "OK she's not interested" and leave it at that. Contrary to what Hollywood thinks happens, men generally don't keep trying and trying and trying.

Imagine being a female and having to decide within the first few conversations with a male if he's a suitable to be a romantic partner.

Having a conversation is usually indicative of a positive reception of a male's advances.

If you choose no and he should be yes, it will never be socially acceptable for him to be interested in you again. That's a dumb system on its face. And honestly, it sounds like it would put a lot of pressure on the female which defeats the whole point.

Not really. In these interactions, women hold all the cards. It puts a lot of pressure on men because they're the ones that have to make a good impression.

Our generation is just terrible at social interaction, especially in the sense that we feel the need to try to set specific rules on social interaction.

Well certain subsets of the population do. The problems that currently exist are not to do with specific rule sets, but the inconsistency and confusion around what's acceptable and what isn't (and the apparent taboos surrounding women's behaviour in the courting process) and how one-sided the rules are applied.

The broad principles like communicating honestly, being respectful, listening, etc are far more important than any specific do's and don'ts - and Feminism is rapidly moving toward caring about the latter from my standpoint.

You're implying it wasn't already like that from when they started giving a damn about women interacting with men.

[The Parkus Empire]

Walking up to random women and going "do I turn you on" is not recommended.

How about asking your female friends, if you have any? It may not be reliable sampling in scientific terms, but it's as good a way as any to get at least a glimpse into how real women feel about real men, rather than imaginary ones.

How about giving empathy a shot, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes?

That media influences culture, and that it's overwhelmingly women who drive the Rom Com genre and turn things like Twilight and 50 Shades into global phenomenons...when the general theme of all of those movies is "Being a creepy obsessive controlling manipulative stalker and abusing any power you have over them is the best way to get the girl, they love it!".

All of which has been criticized by many women themselves. And despite the obvious influence such cultural products might have, I have yet to see anyone demonstrating a direct causal link between the fantasies in those cultural products and some sort of widespread female acceptance of predatory sexual behavior in real men in everyday life.

Your phrasing itself shows a problem in your approach. You are speaking from the perspective of a man who thinks that the male behavior shown in those products is supposed to set an example for you, that it's been created with you as its target audience.

Edward Cullen and Christian Grey don't exist to be your pick-up artistry coaches. They are not there to teach you how to seduce women. They were not created for an idealized male audience that would follow their example. If you read or watch those characters, and your reaction is to frame them in terms of "this is what women want you, real-life men, to do", then you're in trouble.

When I read Thor fanfiction in which Thor is a rough, predatory Dom, my reaction isn't "this is how all real-life male tops should behave whether I ask them to or not". My reaction is far more likely to be "this is a hot fantasy that could work as roleplay with a partner of my choosing".

Uh, that's kind of his point though, the message of these movies that women seem to love is that you don't ask them for their opinions or emotions, you just insert yourself into their lives and keep manipulating and stalking them until they realize they loved you all along!

Hence the broader point that women complain about these representations in Hollywood and then continue throwing obscene amounts of money at them to keep making them.

That argument of yours only works if we continue to accept your blatant overgeneralization. You are acting as if preference for Twilight and Fifty Shades was an inherent or universal female trait.

Furthermore, you are still failing to take into consideration the distinction between fantasy and reality.

Also, there is not much of a historical analysis going on here. Let's assume that you are right, and women in general enjoy the idea of masculinity presented in those movies to the point of secretly wanting it in real life too... Why? Why is that? Has it always been this way?

I would not try to find out if I turned on a woman by by asking. That's just...no.

If you want to woo a random woman, maybe start by smiling and waving, then engaging in conversation if she smiles and waves back

[Costa Fierro]

I would not try to find out if I turned on a woman by by asking. That's just...no.

Women also have ways of letting men know they're attracted to said men. Some of them are very subtle, like changes in the pitch of their voice.

If you want to woo a random woman, maybe start by smiling and waving, then engaging in conversation if she smiles and waves back

To be honest, I wouldn't even do that.