Iceland To Ban Male Circumcision

[The South Falls]

That's an ultra-orthodox religious group. They literally SUCKED away the blood. That's how the STD came, not through the blood. If a trained doctor does it, even at birth, then the baby will be fine.

Last year's pile of 200 dead babies disagrees.

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

Last year's pile of 200 dead babies disagrees.

No, no it’s okay. It’s all alright because their book told them to. Which means we have to kowtow to it.

We don't have to, but it's a breach of religious freedom. Refer to my above post.

[Salus Maior]

Nope. They will still grow up to be a productive, and probably patriotic citizen with the possibility of a vibrant life.

And if they were molested you could say the same thing. "They'll be fine" is not an excuse to do terrible things to babies.

I would not, actually. Molestation is a far worse offense than circumcision for the obvious reasons.

Are you capable of arguing against circumcision without comparing to it crimes that are not at all related or have similar effects as circumcision?

[Blood Wine]

Naturally. That doesn't mean they should actively pass laws on things that are incredibly important to said tradition, and aren't a real imposition to their productivity in the nation. That's tyrannical, and intolerant.

You heard it here folks. Stopping people from cutting off bits of baby dick is tyrannical.

Guess its time to allow people to stone adulterers too

[Ors Might]

You heard it here folks. Stopping people from cutting off bits of baby dick is tyrannical.

Guess its time to allow people to stone adulterers too

All in the name of religious freedom.
*nods*

[Blood Wine]

Last year's pile of 200 dead babies disagrees.

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

>religious leaders
>jewish practice

see the link here bro?

[Blood Wine]

And if they were molested you could say the same thing. "They'll be fine" is not an excuse to do terrible things to babies.

I would not, actually. Molestation is a far worse offense than circumcision for the obvious reasons.

Are you capable of arguing against circumcision without comparing to it crimes that are not at all related or have similar effects as circumcision?

Okay, compare it to piercing a babies ears, would you be okay with that?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Nonconsensual penis cutting is not an imposition on a man's life.

Nope. They will still grow up to be a productive, and probably patriotic citizen with the possibility of a vibrant life.

Fun fact: many governments protect human rights, even those that make citizens less productive. The real world is not a Paradox game; there are other things to consider than productivity.

[Ors Might]

Last year's pile of 200 dead babies disagrees.

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

No, no it’s okay. It’s all alright because their book told them to. Which means we have to kowtow to it.

We don't have to, but it's a breach of religious freedom. Refer to my above post.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a breach of religious freedom. They’re mutilating children.

[Gravlen]

Sure you do. Just change the Bris ceremony into a ceremonial circumcision. A needle and a single drop of blood kind of thing. The family all still get together and celebrate the birth, a baby still gets ceremonially hurt and for the real weirdos in the practice, a bloke can still suck on baby dick.

Job done.

No, you can't.

I think we can leave telling Jews how to practice to Rabbis and Jewish scholars, and not random internet posters who barely understand it.

And even then, no one else who's anti-circumcision here would agree with you on your proposed changes.

I'm anti-circumcision and I agree with his proposed changes.

[Salus Maior]

You certainly haven't made any indication that you have any connection, and unless you now intend to reveal your Jewishness that's a pointless thing to mention.

Circumcision is not an imposition on a man's life in any real sense. I'd say the exchange is a worthwhile one for those entering the Jewish culture and heritage.

Let's just say I could get Israeli citizenship tomorrow if I wanted it under the right of return and leave it at that.

And I'd say that mutilation is bad no matter the reasons. Same way I consider sharia laws to be often barbaric, and at least they mutilate an adult with an understanding of the risks of committing a crime. Cutting bits off babies who have done nothing worse than be born is simply unconscionable.

That's basically meaningless. Ukrainian Orthodox Christian families can get the Israeli right of return just because one of the parent's grandmothers was Jewish. That does not mean you have any meaningful connection to the culture, anymore than I, an American raised on the East Coast,can call myself Swedish because my great-grandfather was a Swede.

Things like that in Sharia law are also punishments for crime, Jewish circumcision isn't a punishment for anything. It's a birthright.

[The South Falls]

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

>religious leaders
>jewish practice

see the link here bro?

No, as if trained doctors can do this, then circumcision can still happen, just having special doctors to do it. Breach of religious freedom, otherwise.

[Blood Wine]

Let's just say I could get Israeli citizenship tomorrow if I wanted it under the right of return and leave it at that.

And I'd say that mutilation is bad no matter the reasons. Same way I consider sharia laws to be often barbaric, and at least they mutilate an adult with an understanding of the risks of committing a crime. Cutting bits off babies who have done nothing worse than be born is simply unconscionable.

That's basically meaningless. Ukrainian Orthodox Christian families can get the Israeli right of return just because one of the parent's grandmothers was Jewish. That does not mean you have any meaningful connection to the culture, anymore than I, an American raised on the East Coast,can call myself Swedish because my great-grandfather was a Swede.

Things like that in Sharia law are also punishments for crime, Jewish circumcision isn't a punishment for anything. It's a birthright.

Actually no, a babies birthright is to not be instantly mutilated

[Ifreann]

I don't know how to tell you this, but the governments of the world do, in fact, have the power to pass laws that are binding on Jews, Christians, or any other community within their jurisdiction.

Naturally. That doesn't mean they should actively pass laws on things that are incredibly important to said tradition, and aren't a real imposition to their productivity in the nation. That's tyrannical, and intolerant.

Do you think so? I think that governments should protect the rights of all people within their borders, regardless of how productive they are, regardless of the traditional significance other people place on doing them harm.

[Salus Maior]

I would not, actually. Molestation is a far worse offense than circumcision for the obvious reasons.

Are you capable of arguing against circumcision without comparing to it crimes that are not at all related or have similar effects as circumcision?

Okay, compare it to piercing a babies ears, would you be okay with that?

I would not do that to my children (I wouldn't circumcise them either), and I don't really support it as a whole considering there's no real significance attached to it.

Although that is legal I believe, and people do that to their children here.

[The South Falls]

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

We don't have to, but it's a breach of religious freedom. Refer to my above post.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a breach of religious freedom. They’re mutilating children.

Again, that mutilation branding is as thin as a straw. It poses no risk, if done right.

[Salus Maior]

That's basically meaningless. Ukrainian Orthodox Christian families can get the Israeli right of return just because one of the parent's grandmothers was Jewish. That does not mean you have any meaningful connection to the culture, anymore than I, an American raised on the East Coast,can call myself Swedish because my great-grandfather was a Swede.

Things like that in Sharia law are also punishments for crime, Jewish circumcision isn't a punishment for anything. It's a birthright.

Actually no, a babies birthright is to not be instantly mutilated

Jewish circumcision doesn't happen immediately upon birth like it does in secular hospitals.

[Gravlen]

Last year's pile of 200 dead babies disagrees.

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

So if those deaths could be avoided... why weren't they?

No, no it’s okay. It’s all alright because their book told them to. Which means we have to kowtow to it.

We don't have to, but it's a breach of religious freedom. Refer to my above post.

The fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighs the fundamental rights of the parents in the case of non-therapeutic circumcision of minors. Further, your desire to permanently mark a child as an adherrent to a specific religion is also arguably a violation of the religious freedom of the child itself.

[Webus]

Great news! Ending child abuse shouldn't be controversial, but sadly certain people here seem to think parents forcing genital mutilation on their kids too young to resist is 'freedom'.

[Gravlen]

It doesn’t matter if it’s a breach of religious freedom. They’re mutilating children.

Again, that mutilation branding is as thin as a straw. It poses no risk, if done right.

The risk of death due to circumsicion will always be >0, even if done right.

[Blood Wine]

Actually no, a babies birthright is to not be instantly mutilated

Jewish circumcision doesn't happen immediately upon birth like it does in secular hospitals.

Almost instantly* what difference does it make when a baby gets traumatized because of a cult?

Okay, compare it to piercing a babies ears, would you be okay with that?

I would not do that to my children (I wouldn't circumcise them either), and I don't really support it as a whole considering there's no real significance attached to it.

Although that is legal I believe, and people do that to their children here.

It would be considered child abuse, aka illegal

[Fartsniffage]

Let's just say I could get Israeli citizenship tomorrow if I wanted it under the right of return and leave it at that.

And I'd say that mutilation is bad no matter the reasons. Same way I consider sharia laws to be often barbaric, and at least they mutilate an adult with an understanding of the risks of committing a crime. Cutting bits off babies who have done nothing worse than be born is simply unconscionable.

That's basically meaningless. Ukrainian Orthodox Christian families can get the Israeli right of return just because one of the parent's grandmothers was Jewish. That does not mean you have any meaningful connection to the culture, anymore than I, an American raised on the East Coast,can call myself Swedish because my great-grandfather was a Swede.

Things like that in Sharia law are also punishments for crime, Jewish circumcision isn't a punishment for anything. It's a birthright.

"Welcome to Earth citizen, now you will be tortured and mutilated."

[Ifreann]

That's basically meaningless. Ukrainian Orthodox Christian families can get the Israeli right of return just because one of the parent's grandmothers was Jewish. That does not mean you have any meaningful connection to the culture, anymore than I, an American raised on the East Coast,can call myself Swedish because my great-grandfather was a Swede.

Things like that in Sharia law are also punishments for crime, Jewish circumcision isn't a punishment for anything. It's a birthright.

"Welcome to Earth citizen, now you will be tortured and mutilated."

"Oh stop crying, you'll still be productive"

[The South Falls]

Great news! Ending child abuse shouldn't be controversial, but sadly certain people here seem to think parents forcing genital mutilation on their kids too young to resist is 'freedom'.

'Child abuse is when a parent or caregiver, whether through action or failure to act, causes injury, death, emotional harm or risk of serious harm to a child.' That's the definition of child abuse. The only one that even remotely comes through, is "risk of serious harm." But again, if performed by a trained doctor, it can work without harm. It's not child abuse.

[Salus Maior]

119. Also, that was due to untrained doctors, or religious leaders, circumcising the kids. Or Haemophiliacs bleeding to death. We test a baby for Haemophilia, have trained doctors, no one dies. Also, for the Haemophilia bit, that would mean that everything should be banned. Like cement, or walls, or knives. Or trees.

So if those deaths could be avoided... why weren't they?

Because American hospitals (which is where those numbers are from) are attached to a Victorian era idea of circumcision for some reason.

[Camicon]

Again, that mutilation branding is as thin as a straw. It poses no risk, if done right.

The risk of death due to circumsicion will always be >0, even if done right.

Right now it's roughly 1 death every 10,000 circumcisions.