Iceland To Ban Male Circumcision

[Salus Maior]

To one outside of Jewish culture and religion, sure you can see it that way. Jews, obviously, don't. It's an important part of being introduced into their ancient community, being made part of the Tribe of Israel which is their birthright and part of their identity.

And identity is incredibly important. People around the world and throughout history have suffered horrible things and sacrificed a lot for the sake of their cultural or religious identities, Jews are an excellent example of this but not the only ones.

I’m going to be frank. I do not care that this will impact the Jews. Have they suffered unjustly throughout the centuries? Oh hell yes. But that does not excuse child mutilation. If it upsets them that they can’t cut off pieces of children well too bad. Their right to practice their faith does not trump the rights of their children to not be mutilated.

It's not an upset, it's a travesty. And the travesty is that you want the government to intrude on their community (something you have no stock in, and yet want to pull into your vision of the world) and use force to ban their ancient rites and not only spit on their religion, but on their very identity, something that encompasses more than just the faithful but the ancient Jewish culture itself, which includes both the religious and the irreligious.

[Fartsniffage]

I’m going to be frank. I do not care that this will impact the Jews. Have they suffered unjustly throughout the centuries? Oh hell yes. But that does not excuse child mutilation. If it upsets them that they can’t cut off pieces of children well too bad. Their right to practice their faith does not trump the rights of their children to not be mutilated.

It's not an upset, it's a travesty. And the travesty is that you want the government to intrude on their community (something you have no stock in, and yet want to pull into your vision of the world) and use force to ban their ancient rites and not only spit on their religion, but on their very identity, something that encompasses more than just the faithful but the ancient Jewish culture itself, which includes both the religious and the irreligious.

They should find better things to do than cut parts of babies then.

[Salus Maior]

I didn't say "I", I used a plural "our". I can guarantee you, if you lined up a bunch of circumcised guys (not hard to come by in America) and asked them how they feel about being circumcised, the majority of them would probably just give you a weird look. Because men who are circumcised really just don't think about it, it doesn't intrude on their lives, it doesn't impede anything. It's a minor footnote, a bit of trivia about them. They still lead their lives and find as much success and failure as the rest of the world does.

That being said, I don't believe that hospitals should automatically circumcise boys as it happens in America. Because there's no point to it, Christians etc have no stock in it, no cultural or religious importance. It's based off of Victorian era misconceptions that have just stuck in our medical system.

You expect doctors in a for profit medical system not to advocate unnecessary medical procedures that make money?

What does that have to do with anything?

I repeat: So it's not a problem because your life is unaffected?

It's not a problem because it's not a problem for people who have been circumcised. The vast majority at least.

[Fartsniffage]

It's not a problem because it's not a problem for people who have been circumcised. The vast majority at least.

The ones that survive anyway...

[Salus Maior]

It's not an upset, it's a travesty. And the travesty is that you want the government to intrude on their community (something you have no stock in, and yet want to pull into your vision of the world) and use force to ban their ancient rites and not only spit on their religion, but on their very identity, something that encompasses more than just the faithful but the ancient Jewish culture itself, which includes both the religious and the irreligious.

They should find better things to do than cut parts of babies then.

You can't simply change something that ancient and long-held a rite and somehow keep that ancient identity intact.

In fact, I would say that the exchange is a profitable one, as Jews believe. Identity is far more important than a flap of skin, hell, even atheistic Jews still call themselves Jews and identify with it's ancient rites and culture.

[Salus Maior]

It's not a problem because it's not a problem for people who have been circumcised. The vast majority at least.

The ones that survive anyway...

Like I said, I'm in support of the ending of American secular hospital circumcision, which is where that aforementioned article got that data from.

[Ifreann]

But I shouldn't have the right to practice my religion of being given beer on other people's dime. Because Jews can remove the foreskins of their children, but I can't remove money from people's wallets.

Considering this religion doesn't even exist and you don't adhere to it, technically "no".

Of course it exists, and as a =POPE= of Discordia, genuine and authorised by the House of the Apostles of Eris, I can entirely rework the religion in whatever manner I see fit. My religion is every bit as real as yours.

[Fartsniffage]

They should find better things to do than cut parts of babies then.

You can't simply change something that ancient and long-held a rite and somehow keep that ancient identity intact.

In fact, I would say that the exchange is a profitable one, as Jews believe. Identity is far more important than a flap of skin, hell, even atheistic Jews still call themselves Jews and identify with it's ancient rites and culture.

Sure you do. Just change the Bris ceremony into a ceremonial circumcision. A needle and a single drop of blood kind of thing. The family all still get together and celebrate the birth, a baby still gets ceremonially hurt and for the real weirdos in the practice, a bloke can still suck on baby dick.

Job done.

[Salus Maior]

Considering this religion doesn't even exist and you don't adhere to it, technically "no".

Of course it exists, and as a =POPE= of Discordia, genuine and authorised by the House of the Apostles of Eris, I can entirely rework the religion in whatever manner I see fit. My religion is every bit as real as yours.

I look forward to you explaining that to the police.

[Des-Bal]

It's not a problem because it's not a problem for people who have been circumcised. The vast majority at least.

That's a meaningless tautology.

[Salus Maior]

You can't simply change something that ancient and long-held a rite and somehow keep that ancient identity intact.

In fact, I would say that the exchange is a profitable one, as Jews believe. Identity is far more important than a flap of skin, hell, even atheistic Jews still call themselves Jews and identify with it's ancient rites and culture.

Sure you do. Just change the Bris ceremony into a ceremonial circumcision. A needle and a single drop of blood kind of thing. The family all still get together and celebrate the birth, a baby still gets ceremonially hurt and for the real weirdos in the practice, a bloke can still suck on baby dick.

Job done.

No, you can't.

I think we can leave telling Jews how to practice to Rabbis and Jewish scholars, and not random internet posters who barely understand it.

And even then, no one else who's anti-circumcision here would agree with you on your proposed changes.

[Fartsniffage]

Sure you do. Just change the Bris ceremony into a ceremonial circumcision. A needle and a single drop of blood kind of thing. The family all still get together and celebrate the birth, a baby still gets ceremonially hurt and for the real weirdos in the practice, a bloke can still suck on baby dick.

Job done.

No, you can't.

I think we can leave telling Jews how to practice to Rabbis and Jewish scholars, and not random internet posters who barely understand it.

And even then, no one else who's anti-circumcision here would agree with you on your proposed changes.

If those rabbis and doctors support the unrequired mutilation of a child then I have no interest in their opinion.

[Ors Might]

I’m going to be frank. I do not care that this will impact the Jews. Have they suffered unjustly throughout the centuries? Oh hell yes. But that does not excuse child mutilation. If it upsets them that they can’t cut off pieces of children well too bad. Their right to practice their faith does not trump the rights of their children to not be mutilated.

It's not an upset, it's a travesty. And the travesty is that you want the government to intrude on their community (something you have no stock in, and yet want to pull into your vision of the world) and use force to ban their ancient rites and not only spit on their religion, but on their very identity, something that encompasses more than just the faithful but the ancient Jewish culture itself, which includes both the religious and the irreligious.

I don’t give two fucks about their religion or cultural identity. What I do care about is baby boys being mutilated. If it weren’t for that little thing, they could do whatever the hell they want and I wouldn’t be bothered. Get off your cross, the world doesn’t revolve around Jews.

[Hatterleigh]

Children are going to be influenced in a lot of things very heavily by their parents no matter what, religion is just one of many.

Agreed. It's hopeless to try to prevent indoctrination. However, we cannot allow parents to mutilate their children with impunity, especially when there is no hope of undoing the process. I can't believe this is still a matter of debate in the western world.

Does it really matter that much? I mean it isn't like you're cutting off their hand. or anything, it's barely even noticeable.

[The South Falls]

And Quetzacotl requires hearts. Why should this matter to secular law?

Because one is murder and the other is not.

Also that one took place in a terrible society, filled with murder. And the other poses no risk to infants, other than ones who are of unclear genital orientation.

[Ifreann]

Of course it exists, and as a =POPE= of Discordia, genuine and authorised by the House of the Apostles of Eris, I can entirely rework the religion in whatever manner I see fit. My religion is every bit as real as yours.

I look forward to you explaining that to the police.

The police can't catch me if I'm on fire.

[Ors Might]

Agreed. It's hopeless to try to prevent indoctrination. However, we cannot allow parents to mutilate their children with impunity, especially when there is no hope of undoing the process. I can't believe this is still a matter of debate in the western world.

Does it really matter that much? I mean it isn't like you're cutting off their hand. or anything, it's barely even noticeable.

It’s pretty noticeable. Perhaps not to the outside world but one will very much notice the lack of foreskin.

[Blood Wine]

The ones that survive anyway...

Like I said, I'm in support of the ending of American secular hospital circumcision, which is where that aforementioned article got that data from.

The deathrate isn't any different under a Mohal

[Ors Might]

Because one is murder and the other is not.

Also that one took place in a terrible society, filled with murder. And the other poses no risk to infants, other than ones who are of unclear genital orientation.

I apologize that I and many others find genital mutilation abhorrent.

[Blood Wine]

Also that one took place in a terrible society, filled with murder. And the other poses no risk to infants, other than ones who are of unclear genital orientation.

I apologize that I and many others find genital mutilation abhorrent.

+child abuse
+complete disregard for health & safety
+in some cases literally giving babies STDs

[Salus Maior]

It's not an upset, it's a travesty. And the travesty is that you want the government to intrude on their community (something you have no stock in, and yet want to pull into your vision of the world) and use force to ban their ancient rites and not only spit on their religion, but on their very identity, something that encompasses more than just the faithful but the ancient Jewish culture itself, which includes both the religious and the irreligious.

I don’t give two fucks about their religion or cultural identity. What I do care about is baby boys being mutilated. If it weren’t for that little thing, they could do whatever the hell they want and I wouldn’t be bothered. Get off your cross, the world doesn’t revolve around Jews.

Which is why you obviously shouldn't have a say as to what said community does, or any power over it. It's not at all important or foundational to your existence so you're fine with throwing stones and telling them to change to your worldview where you see fit.

And for the record, I'm not Jewish, if you can't tell by the Cross of Jerusalem I have as my flag and the Christian verse in my signature. I'm not anymore "on a cross" than you are for arguing the anti-circumcision secular modernist point of view.

[Ors Might]

I apologize that I and many others find genital mutilation abhorrent.

+child abuse
+complete disregard for health & safety
+in some cases literally giving babies STDs

The only conceivable scenarios where circumcision is morally acceptable is in case of medical need and in the case that the patient willingly goes through with it while understanding what it means.

[Blood Wine]

+child abuse
+complete disregard for health & safety
+in some cases literally giving babies STDs

The only conceivable scenarios where circumcision is morally acceptable is in case of medical need and in the case that the patient willingly goes through with it while understanding what it means.

AKA, Iceland (AKA utopia)

[Salus Maior]

No, you can't.

I think we can leave telling Jews how to practice to Rabbis and Jewish scholars, and not random internet posters who barely understand it.

And even then, no one else who's anti-circumcision here would agree with you on your proposed changes.

If those rabbis and doctors support the unrequired mutilation of a child then I have no interest in their opinion.

It is required as part of their cultural and religious identity, which encompasses the Jewish identity both religious and irreligious.

And why should anyone, especially Jews, care about your interest in their opinion? Especially, when you have no attachment or connection to that culture and clamor for them to change based on your own culture and ideas.

[Fartsniffage]

If those rabbis and doctors support the unrequired mutilation of a child then I have no interest in their opinion.

It is required as part of their cultural and religious identity, which encompasses the Jewish identity both religious and irreligious.

And why should anyone, especially Jews, care about your interest in their opinion? Especially, when you have no attachment or connection to that culture and clamor for them to change based on your own culture and ideas.

You have no idea on my connections to that culture.

And mutilating people without their consent is bad no matter what the reasons.