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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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Annihitor the Incred
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Founded: Apr 05, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:49 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Annihitor the Incred wrote:Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.


Are you being serious?

Prisoners can tunnel through steel and concrete unless you have officers to keep an eye on them, do cell searches, conduct personal inspections, etc. And if there are no employees, who's going to keep the records and answer the phones?

Unless they're gophers with steel claws, a soft-fingered human is not going to dig through concrete provided the cell is devoid of tools.
Last edited by Annihitor the Incred on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uiiop
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Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:53 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Failing to do something in itself isn't proof you don't believe in something.
For all that we know this is all an attempt to balance the budget or remake the government into something that does. Again you don't seem to at least consider the possibility of poorly implemented libertarian policy.
Not that balancing the budget is actually an important requirement. Anything that diminishes the state will do. And you can't say that's isn't exactly what happened.

What are you on about?

The Oklahoma legislature is objectively not Libertarian. They have made no steps towards creating any Libertarian policies.

Once again, my point is, from the first freaking page, that blaming a budget failure on Libertarians, when the legislature is not Libertarian, is stupid as all hell.

Like we agreed it's a broad term. So broad that an act of Anorexia can fit even if the government doing the act hasn't done anything else.

Though seriously "Balanced budgets?" We're talking Libertarianism as a whole what the GOP tells itself. It makes perfect for a minarchy to still have a surplus in the bank. Unknown unknown abound. It's makes more sense to have a surplus for emgerices

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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:08 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Are you being serious?

Prisoners can tunnel through steel and concrete unless you have officers to keep an eye on them, do cell searches, conduct personal inspections, etc. And if there are no employees, who's going to keep the records and answer the phones?

Unless they're gophers with steel claws, a soft-fingered human is not going to dig through concrete provided the cell is devoid of tools.


But the cell isn't devoid of tools.

Any piece of material in the cell can become a tool or a weapon. Anything. Components of the light fixture. Components of the plumbing. Break something off, sharpen it against something else for weeks, months, years.

We're talking about people who have literally nothing else to do but sit around and plot their escape if they wanted. If you had years and years and years to dwell on this and thought about nothing else, you'd turn into Macgyver too.
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Saiwania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:11 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:Corporate tax rates are extremely low here (that's the only way OK can compete with neighboring Texas). I have no idea where you got this impression that companies are just up and leaving.


I get the idea that it is likely to happen (if it hasn't already) because what is being seen in Oklahoma has already been seen in Kansas for the most part. Kansas is a cautionary tale of what NOT to do, but unfortunately some other states are following their lead.

https://pathfinderhi.com/kansas-isnt-home-anymore/
A letter from a CEO explaining why they closed up shop in Kansas and moved their operations to Missouri.

Tax cuts are great and all for private business, but only goes so far if the local community is collapsing all around them. I've read rumor that it is becoming harder to attract business to the state because Oklahoma's population is becoming less educated and less skilled objectively speaking, with the steep cuts to education and nearly every other government service they now have to make.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:13 am

"Alright boys, let's cut taxes."
"Good shit, but we're running a deficit, so should we cut spending too?"
"Nah fam, cuts will pay for themselves."
"You sure?"
"Yup."

Obviously, didn't work.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:16 am

So when is Trump going to Make America Great Again? Has he started doing that yet beacuse this shit is just sorry for Oklahomans.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:17 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:So when is Trump going to Make America Great Again? Has he started doing that yet beacuse this shit is just sorry for Oklahomans.


To be fair, as much as I dislike Trump, the blame here rests on Oklahoma's state GOP and their incompetent governor, Mary Fallin.
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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:18 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:So when is Trump going to Make America Great Again? Has he started doing that yet beacuse this shit is just sorry for Oklahomans.


This has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the Oklahoma legislature. Not every policy made on the state level can be blamed on the head of the federal government.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:19 am

Major-Tom wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:So when is Trump going to Make America Great Again? Has he started doing that yet beacuse this shit is just sorry for Oklahomans.


To be fair, as much as I dislike Trump, the blame here rests on Oklahoma's state GOP and their incompetent governor, Mary Fallin.

Fair point, but I was just jabing at how States in his Union of States Aren't looking too good despite how he claimed to make them great again.


But yes, the OK states GOP is not OK.

Krasny-Volny wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:So when is Trump going to Make America Great Again? Has he started doing that yet beacuse this shit is just sorry for Oklahomans.


This has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the Oklahoma legislature. Not every policy made on the state level can be blamed on the head of the federal government.



Like I said, Jab at Trump.
Last edited by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Annihitor the Incred
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:23 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Annihitor the Incred wrote:Unless they're gophers with steel claws, a soft-fingered human is not going to dig through concrete provided the cell is devoid of tools.


But the cell isn't devoid of tools.

Any piece of material in the cell can become a tool or a weapon. Anything. Components of the light fixture. Components of the plumbing. Break something off, sharpen it against something else for weeks, months, years.

We're talking about people who have literally nothing else to do but sit around and plot their escape if they wanted. If you had years and years and years to dwell on this and thought about nothing else, you'd turn into Macgyver too.

Light and plumbing is white-glove softness, it has no place in a cost-efficient cage. Lock up in a 2x2x2 with concrete on 3 sides and steel bars on one. There you go. Then throw in chow and bring out for work once a day (also doubles as walk and exercise).
Last edited by Annihitor the Incred on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil, no reason to hide it.

"We live in a world of pig-faced chariot archers."

Resident metaversal conqueror and Keter-class memetic hazard.

Cerussite wrote:Reasons why the human race should be extinct, for creating this abomination of a nation.

Federated Syria wrote:"They're almost definitely what Mohammad had in mind when he described Shaytan."

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Anna Kendrick wrote:This is more than just malice.

Coutuza wrote:Terrifying memes.

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Senkaku
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Senkaku » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:33 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Senkaku wrote:*lowers taxes*
*cuts govt spending*
"the free market will provide"

*long pause*

"I said the free market will provide! Aaaaany second now!"

Looks to me like the free market is taking a look at this shit and getting the fuck out of such a batshit crazy fucked up place.



Corporate tax rates are extremely low here (that's the only way OK can compete with neighboring Texas). I have no idea where you got this impression that companies are just up and leaving.

From the Economist article in the OP: "No fact embarrasses Oklahomans more, or repels prospective businesses more, than the number of cash-strapped districts that have gone to four-day weeks."

Low corporate tax rates doesn't mean people necessarily want to be there. Y'all got problems.
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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:34 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
But the cell isn't devoid of tools.

Any piece of material in the cell can become a tool or a weapon. Anything. Components of the light fixture. Components of the plumbing. Break something off, sharpen it against something else for weeks, months, years.

We're talking about people who have literally nothing else to do but sit around and plot their escape if they wanted. If you had years and years and years to dwell on this and thought about nothing else, you'd turn into Macgyver too.

Light and plumbing is white-glove softness, it has no place in a cost-efficient cage. Lock up in a 2x2x2 with concrete on 3 sides and steel bars on one. There you go.


If you're proposing a very basic form of solitary confinement without fixtures or furniture, that makes sense. I thought we were talking about Oklahoma prisons, which certainly have both of the above.

Then throw in chow and bring out for work once a day (also doubles as walk and exercise).


Someone's going to have to be paid to throw in the chow and bring the prisoners out for work once a day.

I thought you said paying guards and providing food was unnecessary:

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.
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Annihitor the Incred
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Founded: Apr 05, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:37 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Annihitor the Incred wrote:Light and plumbing is white-glove softness, it has no place in a cost-efficient cage. Lock up in a 2x2x2 with concrete on 3 sides and steel bars on one. There you go.


If you're proposing a very basic form of solitary confinement without fixtures or furniture, that makes sense. I thought we were talking about Oklahoma prisons, which certainly have both of the above.

Then throw in chow and bring out for work once a day (also doubles as walk and exercise).


Someone's going to have to be paid to throw in the chow and bring the prisoners out for work once a day.

I thought you said paying guards and providing food was unnecessary:

Annihitor the Incred wrote:Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.

I'm providing solutions to the prison budgeting - have 2-3 guards that only work 1h/day max, cut everything else - and make prisons as profitable as free labour used to be. If you don't want to earn money, just lock them in. 2 different solutions, matey.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil, no reason to hide it.

"We live in a world of pig-faced chariot archers."

Resident metaversal conqueror and Keter-class memetic hazard.

Cerussite wrote:Reasons why the human race should be extinct, for creating this abomination of a nation.

Federated Syria wrote:"They're almost definitely what Mohammad had in mind when he described Shaytan."

United Celtic Peoples wrote:This is why we can't have nice things.

Anna Kendrick wrote:This is more than just malice.

Coutuza wrote:Terrifying memes.

Nazi Madagascar Republic wrote:eldritch edgelord

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Avalornia
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Founded: Feb 05, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Avalornia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:38 am

What's this? trickle down doesn't work? shocker.

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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:51 am

Avalornia wrote:What's this? trickle down doesn't work? shocker.


trickle down
trickle do
trickle
trickl
trick

It's a trick.
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Shaggtopia
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Postby Shaggtopia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:18 am

Deregulation isn't always the answer... In fact regulations are USUALLY in place to keep things running smoothly as much as they are to protect the people.

Nobody wants to live in the shittiest school district or for that matter a place so mismanaged that the prisons aren't funded (quick side note on that, with all the corners being cut the food must be inhumane in OK prisons right? I mean prison food is already a max/min situation in places that can afford to feed their inmates.) *cough*

Nobody wants to move their business into a market that has no money, even if they have McDonalds money backing them the overhead would be murder to the meager profit margin.

GoP policies are the same as Commie policies. Great in theory but in practice are weak against the weakness of humanity, greed and a simple lack of scruples (but mostly the greed, as I'm sure those legislators are doing just fine these days.)
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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:36 am

Obama should invade Oklahoma and detain all the Republicans in FEMA camps until further notice.

Image

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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:40 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Petrasylvania wrote:So far, not a peep from self-professed libertarians.

Oklahoma: Spends way more than it takes in, eventually collapses due to insufficient income, a cornerstone of Libertarian policy holding that states need to slash spending in conjunction with slashing taxes

You: Lolbertarians amirite

???

Have you ever heard of "Starve" the Beast?
Last edited by Improved werpland on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:42 am

Major-Tom wrote:"Alright boys, let's cut taxes."
"Good shit, but we're running a deficit, so should we cut spending too?"
"Nah fam, cuts will pay for themselves."
"You sure?"
"Yup."

Obviously, didn't work.

Even if you decide that tax cuts would pay for themselves, they obviously wouldn't do so immediately. You could plan to raise spending later, but it wouldn't ever be sustainable in the short term.
Last edited by Philjia on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Air Control
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Ex-Nation

Postby Air Control » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:53 am

Philjia wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:"Alright boys, let's cut taxes."
"Good shit, but we're running a deficit, so should we cut spending too?"
"Nah fam, cuts will pay for themselves."
"You sure?"
"Yup."

Obviously, didn't work.

Even if you decide that tax cuts would pay for themselves, they obviously wouldn't do so immediately. You could plan to raise spending later, but it wouldn't ever be sustainable in the short term.

A large part of this might be that while taxes were lowered, nothing was done to raise the business attractiveness. It doesn't matter how much you cut taxes, if the activity is simply not profitable, there won't be private sector involvement. Change laws to make things like prison, schools, roads etc. profitable, and you won't even have to cut taxes. You've just created new business out of thin air.

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Sovaal
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Sovaal » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:05 pm

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.

Except that they have escaped before. And even then they have to be let out for exercise and to be fed. And you still have to provide electricity and pay for guards and medical setvices. So don’t really see your point.

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Rupudska
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Postby Rupudska » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:06 pm

Solution: Have Kansas and Texas split Oklahoma between themselves. The musical wasn't even that good.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Len Hyet wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No, they hold as a cornerstone policy pursuing certain approaches that they claim will lead to a balanced budget. You are seeing the actual real-world results of those approaches in Oklahoma.

Yeah none of the Oklahoma legislature are Libertarian party members.


And the relevance of that is what, exactly? Apart from the Liberatarian Party by no means having a monopoly on libertarians, the people who wrote the law have no impact on the text of it beyond the writing.

Salandriagado wrote:
Government: moves out of the way to let the free market take over various things.

Free market: does fuck all.

The government didn't move out of the way, by which I assume you mean removing legislative barriers to entry, it just fucked up its budget. That's it.


No, by "move out of the way", I mean "move out of the way", as in "stop providing free services that the free market can't compete with, so that the free market can take over". Which, you will note, failed miserably.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 pm

Rupudska wrote:Solution: Have Kansas and Texas split Oklahoma between themselves. The musical wasn't even that good.


IKR that musical was terrible. :lol:
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The Serbian Empire
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:35 pm

Senkaku wrote:So convince a 75%+ majority of the legislature to raise taxes. Shouldn't be so hard if shit's in such bad shape.

It doesn't work when 70% of the politicians are Republicans. Republicans don't believe in tax increases.
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