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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:47 pm

Kernen wrote:One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.

In other words, the whole point of private education is to tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours.

What a vile, elitist attitude toward anything, let alone such a vital service, let alone one that's vital precisely because it's to our mutual benefit that everyone be educated... unless, of course, private schools are there to educate spoiled rich brats in how to screw over the middle class, just like their fathers before them and their grandfathers before that, in a context the middle class can't see.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:48 pm

Salandriagado wrote:Textbook companies want to sell their books in the largest market. The largest market is Texas, so they write their textbooks for Texas.

Or you could say "fuck it" and buy Canadian ones.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Gospel Power
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Postby Gospel Power » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:49 pm

ok
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:55 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Kernen wrote:One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.

In other words, the whole point of private education is to tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours.

What a vile, elitist attitude toward anything, let alone such a vital service, let alone one that's vital precisely because it's to our mutual benefit that everyone be educated... unless, of course, private schools are there to educate spoiled rich brats in how to screw over the middle class, just like their fathers before them and their grandfathers before that, in a context the middle class can't see.


Probably. I see nothing wrong with people paying for private education if it is better than the public version, provided offering it doesn't actively harm the public option. A total privatization would, obviously, have that effect.

Fwiw, if I had kids, I would plan on sending them to private school. If it gives them an advantage, so much the better for my kids.
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From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:05 pm

Kernen wrote:Probably. I see nothing wrong with people paying for private education if it is better than the public version, provided offering it doesn't actively harm the public option.

Except it does. It really does. It allows the wealthy to run and hide from the problems affecting everybody else like a bunch of worthless cowards without having to do their part in fixing them, even though they're the only ones who can afford to.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:12 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Kernen wrote:Probably. I see nothing wrong with people paying for private education if it is better than the public version, provided offering it doesn't actively harm the public option.

Except it does. It really does. It allows the wealthy to run and hide from the problems affecting everybody else like a bunch of worthless cowards without having to do their part in fixing them, even though they're the only ones who can afford to.


I'd rather give my kids a leg up, honestly. I don't see why it's in their best interest to expose them to substandard education if I can get them better. Its definitely against their best interests to hold them back.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:19 pm

Kernen wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Except it does. It really does. It allows the wealthy to run and hide from the problems affecting everybody else like a bunch of worthless cowards without having to do their part in fixing them, even though they're the only ones who can afford to.


I'd rather give my kids a leg up, honestly. I don't see why it's in their best interest to expose them to substandard education if I can get them better. Its definitely against their best interests to hold them back.

And that's why it shouldn't be up to them. If the rich have a way out, they have no incentive to fix the system, and a far greater number of people would be worse off than if the rich just bit the bullet and helped out.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:21 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Kernen wrote:
I'd rather give my kids a leg up, honestly. I don't see why it's in their best interest to expose them to substandard education if I can get them better. Its definitely against their best interests to hold them back.

And that's why it shouldn't be up to them. If the rich have a way out, they have no incentive to fix the system, and a far greater number of people would be worse off than if the rich just bit the bullet and helped out.

Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:24 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kernen wrote:FWIW, teacher unions do not always operate to protect the workers. Take this with a grain of salt, because it's anecdotal, but I've encountered teacher unions that were wielded rather like a bludgeon to punish administration for errors even when it did not benefit the teachers. In fact, in certain situations, the union's efforts were contrary to the students' well being, resulting in less funds for supplies and teacher strikes.

As with all anecdotal evidence, ymmv.


One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.



Hmm, ok. But most often the unions are there to help the workers.


Not teacher's unions. I have seen a real bad disapproval from them because of the way they use it as a mean to fuck with the school or students without getting fucked back.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm

Kernen wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And that's why it shouldn't be up to them. If the rich have a way out, they have no incentive to fix the system, and a far greater number of people would be worse off than if the rich just bit the bullet and helped out.

Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.

Again, individually, that's to be expected.

But collectively, if you all required each other to help fix this mess, it would take fewer total dollars to solve the problem, as all the money would be going to the public education system, without a single one diverted from it.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:38 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Hmm, ok. But most often the unions are there to help the workers.


Not teacher's unions. I have seen a real bad disapproval from them because of the way they use it as a mean to fuck with the school or students without getting fucked back.

And what do you supposedly base this on?
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:41 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Kernen wrote:Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.

Again, individually, that's to be expected.

But collectively, if you all required each other to help fix this mess, it would take fewer total dollars to solve the problem, as all the money would be going to the public education system, without a single one diverted from it.


I'm not sure why I would want to fix a system I don't intend to use?
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:43 pm

Genuine question here...

To what extent are Oklahoma's various Native American communities impacted by this? Are they dependent on state funds, or do they draw primarily on federal and tribal funds?

I suppose the subtext of that question is whether there's going to be a historical irony in the Cherokee Nation (among others) ending up rather more financially secure than the state of Oklahoma, or whether they're in just as much difficulty as any other residents of the state.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:Genuine question here...

To what extent are Oklahoma's various Native American communities impacted by this? Are they dependent on state funds, or do they draw primarily on federal and tribal funds?

I suppose the subtext of that question is whether there's going to be a historical irony in the Cherokee Nation (among others) ending up rather more financially secure than the state of Oklahoma, or whether they're in just as much difficulty as any other residents of the state.

IIRC, they use federal funding from the BIA. Which is just hilarious.

When I worked out there, approval from the state was insufficient to access native reservation land. Its likely that OK doesn't have *any* authority over reservation land.
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From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Kernen wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Again, individually, that's to be expected.

But collectively, if you all required each other to help fix this mess, it would take fewer total dollars to solve the problem, as all the money would be going to the public education system, without a single one diverted from it.


I'm not sure why I would want to fix a system I don't intend to use?

The kids who grow up in it could be taking care of you when you're old, for one thing.

Also, come on. You shouldn't be selfish anyway.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Post War America
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:25 pm

Kernen wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And that's why it shouldn't be up to them. If the rich have a way out, they have no incentive to fix the system, and a far greater number of people would be worse off than if the rich just bit the bullet and helped out.

Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.


That right there is a societal failing. The notion of individual prestige over civic responsibility. You have managed to single handedly describe and give voice to basically the root of most problems in the United States today.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:54 pm

Kernen wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Again, individually, that's to be expected.

But collectively, if you all required each other to help fix this mess, it would take fewer total dollars to solve the problem, as all the money would be going to the public education system, without a single one diverted from it.


I'm not sure why I would want to fix a system I don't intend to use?


Because you benefit indirectly from living in a country with a more educated populace.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Petrasylvania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Petrasylvania » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:01 pm

Post War America wrote:
Kernen wrote:Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.


That right there is a societal failing. The notion of individual prestige over civic responsibility. You have managed to single handedly describe and give voice to basically the root of most problems in the United States today.

AKA "I've got mine, fuck you."
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:08 pm

Post War America wrote:
Kernen wrote:Not really concerned with a greater number of people. Just my theoretical kids.


That right there is a societal failing. The notion of individual prestige over civic responsibility. You have managed to single handedly describe and give voice to basically the root of most problems in the United States today.

I blame Ralph Waldo Emerson and that "individuality" crap he pushed. This country wasn't built by rugged individuals questing to the horizon, pushing ever onward. It was built by groups of people questing out, helping each other build houses and farms and towns and cities. Hell, even the quintessential rugged individualists, the fur trappers of the 1830s and 1840s seldom, if ever went out alone and they always came back to the rendezvous, they always needed the supply chain that stretched back to St Louis and the East Coast. Rugged individualists who went out on their own ended up like the skeleton in the grass, festooned with arrows, about whom the mule-driver in Dances With Wolves says, "I'll bet someone back east is going, 'Now why don't he write?'"
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:17 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Kernen wrote:
I'm not sure why I would want to fix a system I don't intend to use?


Because you benefit indirectly from living in a country with a more educated populace.


The less educated the masses are, the more likely my own (or my children's) education and skills will command a decent market price.

Yes. I've got mine, and I'm truly not concerned with anybody else's. That said, I did suggest that private schools shouldn't operate to the active detriment of public schools. Merely as an available alternative. Their mere existence doesn't threaten public education.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:20 pm

Kernen wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Because you benefit indirectly from living in a country with a more educated populace.


The less educated the masses are, the more likely my own (or my children's) education and skills will command a decent market price.

Yes. I've got mine, and I'm truly not concerned with anybody else's. That said, I did suggest that private schools shouldn't operate to the active detriment of public schools. Merely as an available alternative. Their mere existence doesn't threaten public education.


The less educated the masses are, the higher the crime rate, and the more of your taxes need to go to helping them.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:23 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Kernen wrote:
The less educated the masses are, the more likely my own (or my children's) education and skills will command a decent market price.

Yes. I've got mine, and I'm truly not concerned with anybody else's. That said, I did suggest that private schools shouldn't operate to the active detriment of public schools. Merely as an available alternative. Their mere existence doesn't threaten public education.


The less educated the masses are, the higher the crime rate, and the more of your taxes need to go to helping them.


Man, am I ever looking forward to living in a gated community.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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Saiwania
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Saiwania » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:24 pm

Salandriagado wrote:The less educated the masses are, the higher the crime rate, and the more of your taxes need to go to helping them.


In addition, if there is less education and higher crime- the less likely businesses are going to want to stay in the state. When the money is all gone from the economy, everything breaks down and gradually falls apart. People begin to move away to where living conditions or economic opportunities are far better.
Last edited by Saiwania on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:46 pm

Kernen wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
The less educated the masses are, the higher the crime rate, and the more of your taxes need to go to helping them.


Man, am I ever looking forward to living in a gated community.


If you really thought this way, you'd be living somewhere in rural Africa. Evidently the people around you being well educated is beneficial to you.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Kernen
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:49 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Kernen wrote:
Man, am I ever looking forward to living in a gated community.


If you really thought this way, you'd be living somewhere in rural Africa. Evidently the people around you being well educated is beneficial to you.

I have no idea why you think I need to go to a foreign country to find a high demand for my expertise.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Screw your society. I don't want to be part of it.

Militant Atheist and nearly graduated Law Student. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

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