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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:57 am

Kernen wrote:
Kramanica wrote:It isn't easy, but that is essentially what happens.

Gross oversimplifications don't contribute to the discussion, so it seems pointless to make that assertion.

There's an undertone of paternalism in the alternative: finding a way to force the issue in a non-democratic manner, through the state's executive power or even federal intrusion. I wonder if perhaps that would be more effective than a democratic solution.

Ha, good luck. That in no way sounds simpler. And the Governor of Oklahoma can't raise taxes on his own. No executive in this country has that power. And I don't see how federal intrusion would work, unless you're suggesting that Congress pass a law forcing taxes to be raised specifically in that state.
Last edited by Kramanica on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tierra Prime
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Postby Tierra Prime » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 am

Sovaal wrote:
Tierra Prime wrote:You'd think that most people would have a handle on the idea that you need taxes to pay for public services. Money doesn't just grow on trees.

Well it seems Monsanto has their next project all laid out.

What's Monsanto?

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:01 am

Tierra Prime wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Well it seems Monsanto has their next project all laid out.

What's Monsanto?

An agricultural company.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:02 am

And anyway, I don't get what this fearmongering is about. There is no societal collapse in Oklahoma. The state appears to be doing fine.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:03 am

Kramanica wrote:
Liriena wrote:I would lowkey ban private schools.

Yeah, let the government have a monopoly on education. That's great...


Free market had a chance to stand up here.

It failed OK.

Sovaal wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Split it up NE and SW right down the middle.

So which is dem doc and which is not, why are the DemSocs DemSocs?



Flip a coin.

JK, elections in both new states with demsocs in both.

As for why, well the free market failed OK, time for them to do something else.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Now irony aside, when are the feds getting involved



Soon I hope. I really hope OK gets the help it needs.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:05 am

Kramanica wrote:And anyway, I don't get what this fearmongering is about. There is no societal collapse in Oklahoma. The state appears to be doing fine.

Teachers haven't gotten a raise in 10 years.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:05 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kramanica wrote:Yeah, let the government have a monopoly on education. That's great...


Free market had a chance to stand up here.

It failed OK.

Sovaal wrote:So which is dem doc and which is not, why are the DemSocs DemSocs?



Flip a coin.

JK, elections in both new states with demsocs in both.

As for why, well the free market failed OK, time for them to do something else.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Now irony aside, when are the feds getting involved



Soon I hope. I really hope OK gets the help it needs.

How?
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am

Kramanica wrote:
Liriena wrote:I would lowkey ban private schools.

Yeah, let the government have a monopoly on education. That's great...

Works for Finland.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am

Kramanica wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Free market had a chance to stand up here.

It failed OK.




Flip a coin.

JK, elections in both new states with demsocs in both.

As for why, well the free market failed OK, time for them to do something else.




Soon I hope. I really hope OK gets the help it needs.

How?


How what?

I'm confused what three statements you are talking about?
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:07 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramanica wrote:Yeah, let the government have a monopoly on education. That's great...

Works for Finland.

We aren't Finland and that's stupid and there's no reason for that.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kramanica wrote:How?


How what?

I'm confused what three statements you are talking about?

How has it failed. Just because it isn't making up for their lack in public education or something?
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kramanica wrote:And anyway, I don't get what this fearmongering is about. There is no societal collapse in Oklahoma. The state appears to be doing fine.

Teachers haven't gotten a raise in 10 years.

Okay, but it's not a societal collapse as OP is suggesting.
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Fartula
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Postby Fartula » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:11 am

Obviously the solution is to cut taxes. Maybe deregulate something. MAGA.

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Frahlind
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Postby Frahlind » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:14 am

Fartula wrote:Obviously the solution is to cut taxes. Maybe deregulate something. MAGA.

Nah, did you even read the OP? Oklahoma is short on money, so they should obviously just print more!
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:14 am

Kramanica wrote:
Liriena wrote:Works for Finland.

We aren't Finland and that's stupid and there's no reason for that.

We don't know for a fact that it wouldn't work. A strong federal public school system, federally funded but with its curricula independently developed by highly qualified educators themselves and with flexibility within the classroom could be great.

For-profit interests in education add an often harmful middleman to the system and can further exacerbate socioeconomic inequality.
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Abraxim
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Postby Abraxim » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 am

Oklahoma is doing fine. Societal collapse? Call me when people start eating eachother.

Police asked to trim a little fat is a good thing, and education levels there match the teachers pay. I really see no problem.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:16 am

Kramanica wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Teachers haven't gotten a raise in 10 years.

Okay, but it's not a societal collapse as OP is suggesting.

A crumbling education system and a large number of underpaid workers is a surefire way to get yourself a societal collapse, though.
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I am:
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Political compass stuff:
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:16 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramanica wrote:We aren't Finland and that's stupid and there's no reason for that.

We don't know for a fact that it wouldn't work. A strong federal public school system, federally funded but with its curricula independently developed by highly qualified educators themselves and with flexibility within the classroom could be great.

For-profit interests in education add an often harmful middleman to the system and can further exacerbate socioeconomic inequality.

I'd prefer people have alternatives if they don't want to see their children to public schools. Competition leads to better results.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:19 am

Kramanica wrote:
Kernen wrote:Gross oversimplifications don't contribute to the discussion, so it seems pointless to make that assertion.

There's an undertone of paternalism in the alternative: finding a way to force the issue in a non-democratic manner, through the state's executive power or even federal intrusion. I wonder if perhaps that would be more effective than a democratic solution.

Ha, good luck. That in no way sounds simpler. And the Governor of Oklahoma can't raise taxes on his own. No executive in this country has that power. And I don't see how federal intrusion would work, unless you're suggesting that Congress pass a law forcing taxes to be raised specifically in that state.


Raising taxes is not the only way to generate revenue. Many administrative agencies can, through rulemaking, apply fees and shift funding burdens. Administrative agencies are, depending on structure, subject to varying degrees of executive power.

Now, I'm not familiar with Oklahoma specifically, but if it functions anything like surrounding states, the Governor is not powerless.

But administrative law is hard. I'm not surprised you missed it.
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Omakhandia
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Postby Omakhandia » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:21 am

Libertarian here. Sorry, but failing miserably to balance a budget is not a key tenet of libertarianism. Also, cuts to education are pretty much never warranted in a country where education is already as bare-bones as it gets in the developed western world. So yeah, raise taxes. Of course, that might have the added effect of sending even more people running from the state, as they realize they can't get by on their low salaries with a higher tax rate.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:21 am

Kernen wrote:
Kramanica wrote:Ha, good luck. That in no way sounds simpler. And the Governor of Oklahoma can't raise taxes on his own. No executive in this country has that power. And I don't see how federal intrusion would work, unless you're suggesting that Congress pass a law forcing taxes to be raised specifically in that state.


Raising taxes is not the only way to generate revenue. Many administrative agencies can, through rulemaking, apply fees and shift funding burdens. Administrative agencies are, depending on structure, subject to varying degrees of executive power.

Now, I'm not familiar with Oklahoma specifically, but if it functions anything like surrounding states, the Governor is not powerless.

But administrative law is hard. I'm not surprised you missed it.

You intend to bureaucracy your way out of this, which won't work. All it will do is apply a bandaid to a much larger problem. Snark won't make up for your utter lack of a solution.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:21 am

Kramanica wrote:
Liriena wrote:We don't know for a fact that it wouldn't work. A strong federal public school system, federally funded but with its curricula independently developed by highly qualified educators themselves and with flexibility within the classroom could be great.

For-profit interests in education add an often harmful middleman to the system and can further exacerbate socioeconomic inequality.

I'd prefer people have alternatives if they don't want to see their children to public schools. Competition leads to better results.

I disagree. Competition guarantees nothing. Your country has a booming private education system, and it's brimming with all manner of frauds, misleading advertising, and continued segregation.

And as far as I'm concerned, you are not entitled to "alternatives" unless you have a genuinely pressing need for them. Otherwise, we are just pandering to a "fuck you I got mine" mentality when it comes to a basic human right like education.
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I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:22 am

Kramanica wrote:Okay, but it's not a societal collapse as OP is suggesting.


It is not teachers getting less paid alone that is the problem. The issue at hand, is that "a collapse" is the direction Oklahoma is heading towards. The longer they maintain bad policy, the further behind that state will get; just as what happened in Kansas under Sam Brownback.

The point is that cutting taxes and spending hasn't corresponded with more economic prosperity, it only blew a huge fiscal hole for Oklahoma and that state has no choice but to downgrade to 4 day school weeks, ignore drunk drivers, keep roads unpaved, cut corners for prisons, among many other things that're going wrong as a result of necessary spending going unfunded for lack of any revenues.

Oklahoma has gutted income tax but has tried to rely upon the most regressive forms of taxation (property and sales tax) but it isn't enough (hasn't worked) because those people (lower to middle class) aren't the ones with all the money to spare like might be true with corporations or the mega wealthy.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:22 am

Abraxim wrote:Oklahoma is doing fine. Societal collapse? Call me when people start eating eachother.

Police asked to trim a little fat is a good thing, and education levels there match the teachers pay. I really see no problem.

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:24 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramanica wrote:I'd prefer people have alternatives if they don't want to see their children to public schools. Competition leads to better results.

I disagree. Competition guarantees nothing. Your country has a booming private education system, and it's brimming with all manner of frauds, misleading advertising, and continued segregation.

And as far as I'm concerned, you are not entitled to "alternatives" unless you have a genuinely pressing need for them. Otherwise, we are just pandering to a "fuck you I got mine" mentality when it comes to a basic human right like education.

Private education gives people alternatives to the completely and utterly shitty public education system we have. Trying to take away those alternatives is cruel and all it does is send people back to a failing educational system. You can argue all day about inequality and how you want to reform the system, but that doesn't change the fact that school choice actually does give people a way out from failing public schools.
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