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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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Hopeington
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Founded: Jan 09, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hopeington » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:01 pm

Saiwania wrote:https://boingboing.net/2018/02/07/this-is-not-ok.html
https://www.economist.com/news/united-s ... ats-matter

One score and six years ago, Oklahoma passed this stupid law requiring a 75%+ majority in their state assembly to raise taxes, effectively making any tax cut that passes- permanent. The legislature of that state had an addiction for cutting taxes to give out corporate welfare to fossil fuel interests and to dabble in some "trickle down" supply side nonsense just as Kansas has done, and predictably- Oklahoma's government is now all out of money.

Oklahoma's K-12 teachers haven't received a pay raise in over a decade and is now 3rd worst in compensation for the entire US. That state can now only afford to pay said teachers by switching to a 4 day school week in 90+ districts, so teachers can work at Walmart to be able to pay rent.

Most teachers understandably, aren't finding these conditions to be acceptable- and are now fleeing the state in droves for better opportunities in neighboring or "better off" states such as Texas or Arkansas. The health insurance situation for Oklahoma teachers leaves much to be desired as well, because many of the plans under their "private" system are more expensive than what teachers are getting paid in salary.

It gets worse, Oklahoma's highway patrol isn't filling their gas tanks to full capacity to "help their state's cash flow." Drunk drivers are being ignored or let go because there isn't anyone to process their tickets anymore, and the state's prison system is nearing collapse. Many inmates will have to be released prematurely, there just aren't any funds left to keep most of them imprisoned.

With essential government services declining to such a steep extent, private businesses are leaving Oklahoma as well. The poorer Oklahoma becomes and the smaller that state's economy gets, the less appeal there is to "set up shop" there or to stick around. It is quite a pitiful state of affairs that is currently unfolding. It looks as if the state is dying just as Kansas was under Sam Brownback's stewardship.

What are your thoughts on this tragic situation? What in your opinion, is the best solution to fixing Oklahoma's problems to effectively turn that state around? Are the results of the policies followed in Oklahoma, further evidence of a massive, catastrophic, colossal failure of the Republican party's economic platform?


My Dad is A teacher I also like in Oklahoma and in my opinion is that The only one to blame is Our Governor Mary Fowler. She is one of the greediest politicians of our Era. Luckily we are having In a few Months. The candidates are looking pretty good.

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Hopeington
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hopeington » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:03 pm

Petrasylvania wrote:How about if we merge Oklahoma and Kansas into a single country called Ancappistan?


Why would we want to share a state with those Inbred Idiots

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:08 pm

Kernen wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you really thought this way, you'd be living somewhere in rural Africa. Evidently the people around you being well educated is beneficial to you.

I have no idea why you think I need to go to a foreign country to find a high demand for my expertise.

The less educated your fellow countryman, the more likely they will respond poorly to rumor hearsay. The more likely there will be things like riots and the such, and the less likely there will be of actual businesses having enough employees who have the education to actually do anything. Oh and the less likely there will be people to actually teach your kids stuff. That gated community, it won't do shit against a mob.
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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:19 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Post War America wrote:
That right there is a societal failing. The notion of individual prestige over civic responsibility. You have managed to single handedly describe and give voice to basically the root of most problems in the United States today.

I blame Ralph Waldo Emerson and that "individuality" crap he pushed. This country wasn't built by rugged individuals questing to the horizon, pushing ever onward. It was built by groups of people questing out, helping each other build houses and farms and towns and cities. Hell, even the quintessential rugged individualists, the fur trappers of the 1830s and 1840s seldom, if ever went out alone and they always came back to the rendezvous, they always needed the supply chain that stretched back to St Louis and the East Coast. Rugged individualists who went out on their own ended up like the skeleton in the grass, festooned with arrows, about whom the mule-driver in Dances With Wolves says, "I'll bet someone back east is going, 'Now why don't he write?'"


Indeed, funny how history doesn't exactly demonstrate the power of individualism. It's almost like our ability to form mutually assistant societies was a better evolutionary strategy.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:30 pm

Post War America wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I blame Ralph Waldo Emerson and that "individuality" crap he pushed. This country wasn't built by rugged individuals questing to the horizon, pushing ever onward. It was built by groups of people questing out, helping each other build houses and farms and towns and cities. Hell, even the quintessential rugged individualists, the fur trappers of the 1830s and 1840s seldom, if ever went out alone and they always came back to the rendezvous, they always needed the supply chain that stretched back to St Louis and the East Coast. Rugged individualists who went out on their own ended up like the skeleton in the grass, festooned with arrows, about whom the mule-driver in Dances With Wolves says, "I'll bet someone back east is going, 'Now why don't he write?'"


Indeed, funny how history doesn't exactly demonstrate the power of individualism. It's almost like our ability to form mutually assistant societies was a better evolutionary strategy.

Assuming evolution was more than just a theory, of course.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:44 pm

Last edited by Northern Davincia on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:55 pm


By chance I know about the guy who made that documentary. He is a hypocrite and an unethical asshole. He made a documentary where he smears Colin Trumbull (a famous anthropologist) as a racist for “misrepresenting” the Ik people (who he only got to see decades after The Mountain People, and whose claims he uncritically believed) and then goes off to make a documentary where he exploits a cargo cult.

The first two sources you posted I did not look at, but I must say for the third one that teachers don’t deserve to get shitty jobs just like the rest of us just cause several leaflets got into some kids’ backpacks two times.
Last edited by Improved werpland on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:01 pm

Hopeington wrote:
Petrasylvania wrote:How about if we merge Oklahoma and Kansas into a single country called Ancappistan?


Why would we want to share a state with those Inbred Idiots

I can't tell if you're an Oklahoman who hates Kansans or a Kansan who hates Oklahomans.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:01 pm

Improved werpland wrote:

By chance I know about the guy who made that documentary. He is a hypocrite and an unethical asshole. He made a documentary where he smears Colin Trumbull (a famous anthropologist) as a racist for “misrepresenting” the Ik people (who he only got to see decades after The Mountain People, and whose claims he uncritically believed) and then goes off to make a documentary where he exploits a cargo cult.

The first two sources you posted I did not look at, but I must say for the third one that teachers don’t deserve to get shitty jobs just like the rest of us just cause several leaflets got into some kids’ backpacks two times.

The creator of a documentary doesn't matter, only the information presented in the documentary itself.
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:14 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Post War America wrote:
Indeed, funny how history doesn't exactly demonstrate the power of individualism. It's almost like our ability to form mutually assistant societies was a better evolutionary strategy.

Assuming evolution was more than just a theory, of course.


Of course.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:18 pm

Kernen wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you really thought this way, you'd be living somewhere in rural Africa. Evidently the people around you being well educated is beneficial to you.

I have no idea why you think I need to go to a foreign country to find a high demand for my expertise.


You'd pay less taxes, wouldn't have to compete with anybody for jobs, and wouldn't have to worry about all the poor people outside the walls.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:27 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Kernen wrote:One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.

In other words, the whole point of private education is to tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours.

What a vile, elitist attitude toward anything, let alone such a vital service, let alone one that's vital precisely because it's to our mutual benefit that everyone be educated... unless, of course, private schools are there to educate spoiled rich brats in how to screw over the middle class, just like their fathers before them and their grandfathers before that, in a context the middle class can't see.

Yes, your envy is palpable, and you want all children to suffer equally.
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Improved werpland wrote:By chance I know about the guy who made that documentary. He is a hypocrite and an unethical asshole. He made a documentary where he smears Colin Trumbull (a famous anthropologist) as a racist for “misrepresenting” the Ik people (who he only got to see decades after The Mountain People, and whose claims he uncritically believed) and then goes off to make a documentary where he exploits a cargo cult.

The first two sources you posted I did not look at, but I must say for the third one that teachers don’t deserve to get shitty jobs just like the rest of us just cause several leaflets got into some kids’ backpacks two times.

The creator of a documentary doesn't matter, only the information presented in the documentary itself.

Their credibility matters. It is very easy to distort information or interpret things lazily, as he did in Ikland.

I like most charter schools. I’m not 100% in favor of everything teachers unions do, but criticizing them when there are so many other fucked up things in education, and when so few public workers live semi-decently like teachers tend do, I’m on their side.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:51 pm

Improved werpland wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The creator of a documentary doesn't matter, only the information presented in the documentary itself.

Their credibility matters. It is very easy to distort information or interpret things lazily, as he did in Ikland.

I like most charter schools. I’m not 100% in favor of everything teachers unions do, but criticizing them when there are so many other fucked up things in education, and when so few public workers live semi-decently like teachers tend do, I’m on their side.

Why do you support charter schools?
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:58 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:In other words, the whole point of private education is to tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours.

What a vile, elitist attitude toward anything, let alone such a vital service, let alone one that's vital precisely because it's to our mutual benefit that everyone be educated... unless, of course, private schools are there to educate spoiled rich brats in how to screw over the middle class, just like their fathers before them and their grandfathers before that, in a context the middle class can't see.

Yes, your envy is palpable, and you want all children to suffer equally.

No, I want them to all do well, like they do in Finland, where the rich don't get to just cut and run.

Even if Finland didn't exist, that would not make you qualified to claim such unwarranted certainty about my motives. That speculation says a LOT more about you than it does about me.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:08 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Yes, your envy is palpable, and you want all children to suffer equally.

No, I want them to all do well, like they do in Finland, where the rich don't get to just cut and run.

Even if Finland didn't exist, that would not make you qualified to claim such unwarranted certainty about my motives. That speculation says a LOT more about you than it does about me.

By admitting that private education is about touting "what's good enough", you admit that they function better than public schools. Ergo, you desire to force children into a worse educational setting.
Finland is a homogenous and small nation. You cannot steal ideas from other nations when their circumstances are vastly different from ours.
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:09 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:No, I want them to all do well, like they do in Finland, where the rich don't get to just cut and run.

Even if Finland didn't exist, that would not make you qualified to claim such unwarranted certainty about my motives. That speculation says a LOT more about you than it does about me.

By admitting that private education is about touting "what's good enough", you admit that they function better than public schools. Ergo, you desire to force children into a worse educational setting.
Finland is a homogenous and small nation. You cannot steal ideas from other nations when their circumstances are vastly different from ours.

I am not sure they do function better then public schools. See private schools have this ability that public schools do not have, namely to select their students. If private schools could not do that, I bet they would function basically the same as public schools.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:By admitting that private education is about touting "what's good enough", you admit that they function better than public schools. Ergo, you desire to force children into a worse educational setting.
Finland is a homogenous and small nation. You cannot steal ideas from other nations when their circumstances are vastly different from ours.

I am not sure they do function better then public schools. See private schools have this ability that public schools do not have, namely to select their students. If private schools could not do that, I bet they would function basically the same as public schools.

The private schools I've seen operate on a lottery basis, not selection.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:14 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:By admitting that private education is about touting "what's good enough", you admit that they function better than public schools. Ergo, you desire to force children into a worse educational setting.

Actually, "tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours" is a context-sensitive statement. It doesn't require that it be "objectively" better (that depends on what you prioritize in education, obviously) just according to the very people advocating private schooling in the first place.

But even if it did, it'd only require comparison to how the USA is right now. Not to how it could be.


Northern Davincia wrote:Finland is a homogenous and small nation. You cannot steal ideas from other nations when their circumstances are vastly different from ours.

"Small" is a meaningless point. Yes, there are fewer people on whom to spend. There are also fewer people from whom to collect taxes, so the point is moot.

So what is it, then? Homogenity? Are you blaming America's problems with education on diversity?
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:16 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I am not sure they do function better then public schools. See private schools have this ability that public schools do not have, namely to select their students. If private schools could not do that, I bet they would function basically the same as public schools.

The private schools I've seen operate on a lottery basis, not selection.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:19 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I am not sure they do function better then public schools. See private schools have this ability that public schools do not have, namely to select their students. If private schools could not do that, I bet they would function basically the same as public schools.

The private schools I've seen operate on a lottery basis, not selection.

None of the private schools I know of in the US operate solely on a lottery system. And selection occurs no matter what given that only people above a certain income can afford to send their kid to private school.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm



Russian Yt vid, an article about a New York Teachers union (don't see how that's relevant to OK as nothing OK would do would affect NY), WND is talking about affirmative action and not actual child abuse (also made my computer lag and was a rant on liberals) academia.org's link is broken.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:By admitting that private education is about touting "what's good enough", you admit that they function better than public schools. Ergo, you desire to force children into a worse educational setting.

Actually, "tout what's good enough for everyone else's kids as not being good enough for yours" is a context-sensitive statement. It doesn't require that it be "objectively" better (that depends on what you prioritize in education, obviously) just according to the very people advocating private schooling in the first place.

But even if it did, it'd only require comparison to how the USA is right now. Not to how it could be.


Northern Davincia wrote:Finland is a homogenous and small nation. You cannot steal ideas from other nations when their circumstances are vastly different from ours.

"Small" is a meaningless point. Yes, there are fewer people on whom to spend. There are also fewer people from whom to collect taxes, so the point is moot.

So what is it, then? Homogenity? Are you blaming America's problems with education on diversity?

1. Objectivity is irrelevant. If private schools provide something better, it is wrong to deny parents the chance to help their children.
2. Finland isn't grossly irresponsible with government spending as the US currently is. And yes, diversity poses unique challenges to education, because the greater the diversity, the more you must tailor education to suit every different group of people who come from different backgrounds and have different experiences. "One size fits all" is dangerous thinking.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:29 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Improved werpland wrote:By chance I know about the guy who made that documentary. He is a hypocrite and an unethical asshole. He made a documentary where he smears Colin Trumbull (a famous anthropologist) as a racist for “misrepresenting” the Ik people (who he only got to see decades after The Mountain People, and whose claims he uncritically believed) and then goes off to make a documentary where he exploits a cargo cult.

The first two sources you posted I did not look at, but I must say for the third one that teachers don’t deserve to get shitty jobs just like the rest of us just cause several leaflets got into some kids’ backpacks two times.

The creator of a documentary doesn't matter, only the information presented in the documentary itself.


It kind of does?

If zed creator is an asshole with an agenda that's uncredible, then why should I watch zed documentary?
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:34 pm



Federal mail fraud is not child abuse or abuse of any kind.
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