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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:04 pm

Dahon wrote:
Petrasylvania wrote:When the Beast is starved so much it appears on a Feed the Children ad.


Image

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Postby Oil exporting People » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Fuck, not another Okie wave; I refuse to read The Grapes of Wrath, Part II.
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:32 pm

What does "Feed the beast'" mean again?
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Postby Northern Davincia » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Liriena wrote:
Kramanica wrote:I'd prefer people have alternatives if they don't want to see their children to public schools. Competition leads to better results.

I disagree. Competition guarantees nothing. Your country has a booming private education system, and it's brimming with all manner of frauds, misleading advertising, and continued segregation.

And as far as I'm concerned, you are not entitled to "alternatives" unless you have a genuinely pressing need for them. Otherwise, we are just pandering to a "fuck you I got mine" mentality when it comes to a basic human right like education.

And public schools are drenched in abuse and strangled by teacher's unions. Alternatives to public education have nothing to do with mentality.
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Postby Petrasylvania » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:01 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:What does "Feed the beast'" mean again?

"Starve the Beast" is what libertarian types in the GOP call the strategy of reducing the size of government by deliberately eliminating funding and revenue sufficient to run government agencies and departments to where they become incapable of fulfilling their tasks and give the GOP pretenses to downsize or abolish them.
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:53 pm

Oklahoma will just be bailed out by the federal government. The same thing happens to Texas every time they are about to lose their "rainy day fund". Failed state governments will be subsidized.
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:11 pm

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Oklahoma will just be bailed out by the federal government. The same thing happens to Texas every time they are about to lose their "rainy day fund". Failed state governments will be subsidized.


Oh the irony...
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Unstoppable Empire of Doom
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:27 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Oklahoma will just be bailed out by the federal government. The same thing happens to Texas every time they are about to lose their "rainy day fund". Failed state governments will be subsidized.


Oh the irony...

The sad part is when local governments like Detroit/Flint go bankrupt they replace the elected government with an appointed one. These cities are put up as poster cities of how democrats failed yet they never mention the white flight or the collapse of industry. Remove 60%+ of any large cities tax base and it will collapse. Even today those two cities are entirely broke and have not rebounded at all despite what effectively has amounted to absolute republican rule. The simple fact is you can't push a string no matter how hard you try and it doesn't matter if you push it with your left wing or right wing.

Meanwhile you take a moderately right wing state, apply aggressive tax reduction, collapse its basic services, collapse its economy, lose most of its intellectual capitol, and come up with the conclusion that the tax reduction was not aggressive enough. To me it eventually sounds like their senate/house just want the entire Oklahoma government to be 200 politicians sitting in a room and saying "we aint gotta do shit, now where is my welfare check? paycheck?"
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 pm

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Oh the irony...

The sad part is when local governments like Detroit/Flint go bankrupt they replace the elected government with an appointed one. These cities are put up as poster cities of how democrats failed yet they never mention the white flight or the collapse of industry. Remove 60%+ of any large cities tax base and it will collapse. Even today those two cities are entirely broke and have not rebounded at all despite what effectively has amounted to absolute republican rule. The simple fact is you can't push a string no matter how hard you try and it doesn't matter if you push it with your left wing or right wing.

Meanwhile you take a moderately right wing state, apply aggressive tax reduction, collapse its basic services, collapse its economy, lose most of its intellectual capitol, and come up with the conclusion that the tax reduction was not aggressive enough. To me it eventually sounds like their senate/house just want the entire Oklahoma government to be 200 politicians sitting in a room and saying "we aint gotta do shit, now where is my welfare check? paycheck?"

>okie
>moderately right wing
:rofl:
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:37 pm

t. results of reaganian fiscal populism but you dont have the fed to your rescue
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:52 am

Neutraligon wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:A national curriculum would just mean the creationist vote of southern voters would contaminate the curriculum of the whole country.

Much as it sucks, I'd rather let the south have this one than take it away from the north.

Given how important Texas is to the textbook industry, it already does.

What, like other states can't print books? Does Texas have more printers in closer proximity to trees or something?


Saiwania wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:A national curriculum would just mean the creationist vote of southern voters would contaminate the curriculum of the whole country.
Much as it sucks, I'd rather let the south have this one than take it away from the north.


It could be drafted and dictated from Washington DC, using a committee from all states to iron out the details and all facts that are objectively wrong can be dismissed. The US isn't a more unitary country, unfortunately. Federalism is just full of weaknesses in terms of it being inefficient.

And there's the tradeoff. A committee from "all states" would include the influence of states that pander to creationist voters.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:17 am

Northern Davincia wrote:And public schools are drenched in abuse and strangled by teacher's unions.

Yes, because the judgment of the collectively pooled wisdom of people who were educated enough to qualify to be teachers yet refused to have anything to do with the depravity of "for-profit education" is analogous to "strangulation."

Let's face it, if the voters REALLY thought teacher's unions went too far, they could always pick a school board who'd pick a fight with 'em. But deep down, most voters know that school is too important to leave to capitalism.

Likewise, if they REALLY thought the answer was to cut and run, they'd support a system that lets EVERYONE cut and run from the current system.
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Postby Trumptonium » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:13 am

The United States is just about the only country left in the Western world where the class you are brought up in will be the primary and most important factor in your life opportunities. This will just sink Oklahoma's middle and lower middle class youth to the far left.

The GOP is often irrational and stupid at the state and local level. It's like accountability and consent of the governed does not exist, and power is a mere testing sandbox for your ideas.

Every state should have its Kasich, Giuliani, Hensarling and Huntsman Jr.

The GOP should be about economic freedom and liberty, with a pursuance of active supply-side policies to aid that growth and enable economic freedom in the first place. Reducing education funding to third world levels is not a supply-side policy, neither is fucking infrastructure in the arse. There was also no point in reducing oil production taxes - they do not hinder or disincentivise economic growth, but are a mere extraction from excess profits. Cutting oil production taxes neither increases oil supply nor encourages investment. Oklahoma should be basking in wealth and self-sufficient government by the very fact it has oil which it can tax to provide public services without burdening the populace. A conservative's dream - zero taxes on the people. Just the resources in the land.

Seems to me like a standard case of hyperpartisanship: the enemies support X, so you must do all in your power to undermine issue X. Same is true of Democrats. But hey, I support that stance on other issues, so I'm shooting an own goal by complaining.
Last edited by Trumptonium on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Colbert Super PAC » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:27 am

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Postby Phoenicaea » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:29 am

Trumptonium wrote:The United States is just about the only country left in the Western world where the class you are brought up in will be the primary and most important factor in your life opportunities. This will just sink Oklahoma's middle and lower middle class youth to the far left..



a suggestion, it may not be the case, nevertheless it may also be primely an electoral thing.
If that means "..class youth" to the far left, so that they don t vote Democrat, or the opposite party, and instead they renounce the vote. This is the mistery.

You don t need to convince electors, you may also disband opposition parties at the electoral moment. As a concept, it is fair (it may be sad if you don t agree, still legitimate) if what counts should be political vote.

This is a well understandable electoral commintment, and rather simple, to burn the opposite party.

About the first half of the quoted comment, I don t judge it so I don t know if I agree, not beeing my topic.
(ps. not American, or living in America)
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Salandriagado » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:21 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Given how important Texas is to the textbook industry, it already does.

What, like other states can't print books? Does Texas have more printers in closer proximity to trees or something?


Textbook companies want to sell their books in the largest market. The largest market is Texas, so they write their textbooks for Texas.

Saiwania wrote:
It could be drafted and dictated from Washington DC, using a committee from all states to iron out the details and all facts that are objectively wrong can be dismissed. The US isn't a more unitary country, unfortunately. Federalism is just full of weaknesses in terms of it being inefficient.

And there's the tradeoff. A committee from "all states" would include the influence of states that pander to creationist voters.


Give it to some experts and get them to write it. Or fuck it, just plagiarise someone else's curriculum.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Liriena wrote:I disagree. Competition guarantees nothing. Your country has a booming private education system, and it's brimming with all manner of frauds, misleading advertising, and continued segregation.

And as far as I'm concerned, you are not entitled to "alternatives" unless you have a genuinely pressing need for them. Otherwise, we are just pandering to a "fuck you I got mine" mentality when it comes to a basic human right like education.

And public schools are drenched in abuse and strangled by teacher's unions. Alternatives to public education have nothing to do with mentality.

"drenched in abuse " [citation needed] "and strangled by teacher's unions" How dare the workers unite and protect there jobs of teaching children.

Clearly, sick scum./s

"Alternatives to public education"

That didn't come up and help the kids of OK when there public schools where lobotomised to compete. For ten years they could have come along and provided better wages and better education for the kids but nope.

Nothing happened and OK is in the down the tubes. Good job picking up what the government was throwing down there free market.

Also, if private schools are so good, then why haven't they replaced public schools by now?

Why do Public schools need to get so much less funding to the point where there making life difficult for the vast majority of people just so that private schools can compete?

If you have to lobotomize your rivals like this then aren't you providing a poor service?

Petrasylvania wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:What does "Feed the beast'" mean again?

"Starve the Beast" is what libertarian types in the GOP call the strategy of reducing the size of government by deliberately eliminating funding and revenue sufficient to run government agencies and departments to where they become incapable of fulfilling their tasks and give the GOP pretenses to downsize or abolish them.



Ok so lobotomize the government service just beacuse "Muh free market iz better beacuse I say so".
Last edited by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:28 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:"drenched in abuse " [citation needed] "and strangled by teacher's unions" How dare the workers unite and protect there jobs of teaching children.

Clearly, sick scum./s

FWIW, teacher unions do not always operate to protect the workers. Take this with a grain of salt, because it's anecdotal, but I've encountered teacher unions that were wielded rather like a bludgeon to punish administration for errors even when it did not benefit the teachers. In fact, in certain situations, the union's efforts were contrary to the students' well being, resulting in less funds for supplies and teacher strikes.

As with all anecdotal evidence, ymmv.
Also, if private schools are so good, then why haven't they replaced public schools by now?


One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.
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Postby Ohioan Territory » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:35 am

Seems all that corporate welfare didn't work out well in terms of keeping business alive in Oklahoma.

A good start for Oklahoma would probably be to remove the 75% nonsense, raise taxes in some areas, and be a little lighter on the tax cutting for corporations. Something has to be done. Oklahoma's government is falling apart.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:44 am

Kernen wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:"drenched in abuse " [citation needed] "and strangled by teacher's unions" How dare the workers unite and protect there jobs of teaching children.

Clearly, sick scum./s

FWIW, teacher unions do not always operate to protect the workers. Take this with a grain of salt, because it's anecdotal, but I've encountered teacher unions that were wielded rather like a bludgeon to punish administration for errors even when it did not benefit the teachers. In fact, in certain situations, the union's efforts were contrary to the students' well being, resulting in less funds for supplies and teacher strikes.

As with all anecdotal evidence, ymmv.
Also, if private schools are so good, then why haven't they replaced public schools by now?


One of the benefits of private school is exclusivity. If everybody was in a private school, it wouldn't be exclusive, so private primary education doesn't have the incentive to expand dramatically. Especially when the public school can always undercut their prices.



Hmm, ok. But most often the unions are there to help the workers.


Ah, ok. So the point of cutting the education budget like that just for the benefit of private schools was never going to help the majority of it's citizens anyway.
Last edited by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kernen » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:49 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Hmm, ok. But most often the unions are there to help the workers.


Ah, the optimism of youth. I envy you.

Ah, ok. So the point of cutting the education budget like that just for the benefit of private schools was never going to help the majority of it's citizens anyway.


Yes. Most definitely, yes. Private schools were never designed to take over general education. Anybody who pretends otherwise is trying to sell you something.
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Postby Colbert Super PAC » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:59 am

Ohioan Territory wrote:Seems all that corporate welfare didn't work out well in terms of keeping business alive in Oklahoma.

A good start for Oklahoma would probably be to remove the 75% nonsense, raise taxes in some areas, and be a little lighter on the tax cutting for corporations. Something has to be done. Oklahoma's government is falling apart.

But raising taxes is socialism! And isn't letting the government fall apart worth it so long as the commies don't win?
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Postby Petrasylvania » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:00 am

Colbert Super PAC wrote:
Ohioan Territory wrote:Seems all that corporate welfare didn't work out well in terms of keeping business alive in Oklahoma.

A good start for Oklahoma would probably be to remove the 75% nonsense, raise taxes in some areas, and be a little lighter on the tax cutting for corporations. Something has to be done. Oklahoma's government is falling apart.

But raising taxes is socialism! And isn't letting the government fall apart worth it so long as the commies don't win?

We can go further and bring back feudalism in Oklahoma! Serfs don't need no edumacashun!
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:30 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Given how important Texas is to the textbook industry, it already does.

What, like other states can't print books? Does Texas have more printers in closer proximity to trees or something?


Saiwania wrote:
It could be drafted and dictated from Washington DC, using a committee from all states to iron out the details and all facts that are objectively wrong can be dismissed. The US isn't a more unitary country, unfortunately. Federalism is just full of weaknesses in terms of it being inefficient.

And there's the tradeoff. A committee from "all states" would include the influence of states that pander to creationist voters.

Texas is basically the biggest buyer of textbooks. Since it is easier (and cheaper) to just make one textbook, most of the textbook makers make one that is geared towards the demands of Texas.
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Postby Post War America » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:16 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:What, like other states can't print books? Does Texas have more printers in closer proximity to trees or something?



And there's the tradeoff. A committee from "all states" would include the influence of states that pander to creationist voters.

Texas is basically the biggest buyer of textbooks. Since it is easier (and cheaper) to just make one textbook, most of the textbook makers make one that is geared towards the demands of Texas.


Clearly Texas knows what's best.
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