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Societal collapse of Oklahoma!

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Uiiop
Senator
 
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Founded: Jun 20, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:31 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Oklahoma is fucked I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying blaming a budget crisis on people who as a cornerstone of policy hold to balanced budgets is stupid.


No, they hold as a cornerstone policy pursuing certain approaches that they claim will lead to a balanced budget. You are seeing the actual real-world results of those approaches in Oklahoma.

There's is an argument to be made over whether this actually qualifies as an full implementation of such a approach or not. And if not what got in way.
But that's different from denying even the possibility of this being an attempt at Libertarianism. It seems they either do it well or it wasn't them.

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Len Hyet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:42 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Oklahoma is fucked I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying blaming a budget crisis on people who as a cornerstone of policy hold to balanced budgets is stupid.


No, they hold as a cornerstone policy pursuing certain approaches that they claim will lead to a balanced budget. You are seeing the actual real-world results of those approaches in Oklahoma.

Yeah none of the Oklahoma legislature are Libertarian party members.

Uiiop wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No, they hold as a cornerstone policy pursuing certain approaches that they claim will lead to a balanced budget. You are seeing the actual real-world results of those approaches in Oklahoma.

There's is an argument to be made over whether this actually qualifies as an full implementation of such a approach or not. And if not what got in way.
But that's different from denying even the possibility of this being an attempt at Libertarianism. It seems they either do it well or it wasn't them.

See above.

Salandriagado wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Government: Fails

Damn free market at it again


Government: moves out of the way to let the free market take over various things.

Free market: does fuck all.

The government didn't move out of the way, by which I assume you mean removing legislative barriers to entry, it just fucked up its budget. That's it.

Uiiop wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Oklahoma is fucked I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying blaming a budget crisis on people who as a cornerstone of policy hold to balanced budgets is stupid.

Well the way you describe them it certainly sounds like the lawmakers who did this. But i guess incompetence doesn't factor in your eyes.


Yeah I think you jumped into this conversation half-cocked.

My original comment was a response to someone putting Libertarians on blast (because this is somehow our fault).
Last edited by Len Hyet on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uiiop
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Founded: Jun 20, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:54 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
No, they hold as a cornerstone policy pursuing certain approaches that they claim will lead to a balanced budget. You are seeing the actual real-world results of those approaches in Oklahoma.

Yeah none of the Oklahoma legislature are Libertarians, or even make any claim at being so.

Uiiop wrote:There's is an argument to be made over whether this actually qualifies as an full implementation of such a approach or not. And if not what got in way.
But that's different from denying even the possibility of this being an attempt at Libertarianism. It seems they either do it well or it wasn't them.

See above.

Salandriagado wrote:
Government: moves out of the way to let the free market take over various things.

Free market: does fuck all.

The government didn't move out of the way, by which I assume you mean removing legislative barriers to entry, it just fucked up its budget. That's it.

Uiiop wrote:Well the way you describe them it certainly sounds like the lawmakers who did this. But i guess incompetence doesn't factor in your eyes.


Yeah I think you jumped into this conversation half-cocked.

My original comment was a response to someone putting Libertarians on blast (because this is somehow our fault).


You are aware that Libertarianism is a very broad term accompanying more people/groups than just the libertarian party right? A term that at least in some sense(EX: the definition you gave me beforehand) is supposed to fit the party of fiscal responsibility.
However ill prepared I may be you should of been aware of this semantic issue and resolved it before going straight into the denials.
Last edited by Uiiop on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Len Hyet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:57 am

Uiiop wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Yeah none of the Oklahoma legislature are Libertarians, or even make any claim at being so.


See above.


The government didn't move out of the way, by which I assume you mean removing legislative barriers to entry, it just fucked up its budget. That's it.



Yeah I think you jumped into this conversation half-cocked.

My original comment was a response to someone putting Libertarians on blast (because this is somehow our fault).


You are aware that Libertarianism is a very broad term accompanying more people/groups than just the libertarian party right? A term that at least in some sense(EX: the definition you gave me beforehand) is supposed to fit the party of fiscal responsibility.
However ill prepared I may be you should of been aware of this semantic issue and resolved it before going straight into the denials.

:roll:

Yes I'm aware Libertarian is a broad concept. Everything from Ancaps to Hippies can be counted in that bubble.

That doesn't change the fact that a bunch of Republicans and a bunch of Democrats failing to balance a budget is in no way shape or form the fault of Libertarians.
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Iridencia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Iridencia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:03 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
But the free market is meant to solve all our problems and stuff.

Government: Fails

Damn free market at it again


"We don't want your help Government, get lost! We can do things on our own!"
"Okay."
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Uiiop
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Founded: Jun 20, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:06 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Uiiop wrote:
You are aware that Libertarianism is a very broad term accompanying more people/groups than just the libertarian party right? A term that at least in some sense(EX: the definition you gave me beforehand) is supposed to fit the party of fiscal responsibility.
However ill prepared I may be you should of been aware of this semantic issue and resolved it before going straight into the denials.

:roll:

Yes I'm aware Libertarian is a broad concept. Everything from Ancaps to Hippies can be counted in that bubble.

That doesn't change the fact that a bunch of Republicans and a bunch of Democrats failing to balance a budget is in no way shape or form the fault of Libertarians.

Since when does being a republican/democrat mean you can't be a libertarian?
You're just saying these people somehow aren't a part of something without adequately explaining your reasoning. And what reasoning/definitions you have provided either fits the subjects like a glove or contradict themselves (Did Hippies even care about the budget at least consistently?)
Last edited by Uiiop on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Len Hyet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:11 am

Uiiop wrote:
Len Hyet wrote: :roll:

Yes I'm aware Libertarian is a broad concept. Everything from Ancaps to Hippies can be counted in that bubble.

That doesn't change the fact that a bunch of Republicans and a bunch of Democrats failing to balance a budget is in no way shape or form the fault of Libertarians.

Since when does being a republican/democrat mean you can't be a libertarian?
You're just saying these people somehow aren't a part of something without actually explaining your reasoning.

Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.
Last edited by Len Hyet on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
=][= Founder, 1st NSG Irregulars. Si vis pacem, para bellum - Fiat justicia, et pereat mundus - Our Militia is Well Regulated and Well Lubricated!
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Olthar
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Founded: Jun 23, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Olthar » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Since when does being a republican/democrat mean you can't be a libertarian?
You're just saying these people somehow aren't a part of something without actually explaining your reasoning.

Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.

So, people enacting libertarian policies are only actually libertarian if everything works perfectly? Any instance of libertarianism failing is just an example of No True Libertarian? You must have those goal posts welded to a high speed rail system.
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Saiwania
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Saiwania » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 am

Len Hyet wrote:Oklahoma is fucked I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying blaming a budget crisis on people who as a cornerstone of policy hold to balanced budgets is stupid.


Republicans never ever hold to balanced budgets in my experience (the same probably holds true for Libertarians). Just take one look at Donald Trump's outrageous budget proposals. With his tax bill he has already blown through $1 Trillion. If his policies are continued 10 years out and aren't cancelled ahead of time, the US could be seeing annual budget deficits of $2 Trillion every year.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/budget-deal-w ... r-deficits

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Len Hyet
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Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:20 am

Olthar wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.

So, people enacting libertarian policies are only actually libertarian if everything works perfectly? Any instance of libertarianism failing is just an example of No True Libertarian? You must have those goal posts welded to a high speed rail system.

No by all means, jump into a conversation without bothering to read any context.

Original point: This is not the fault of Libertarianism, because this is not a Libertarian government.

Response: Well how do you know that the legislature isn't Libertarian?

Counterpoint: Because they have not done anything Libertarian, such as these examples.
Last edited by Len Hyet on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Annihitor the Incred
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Founded: Apr 05, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:21 am

Wait, since when does prison have to cost money? What exactly costs so much that cannot be covered by profits from it? And why is it considered on par with schools and roads? Hmm, mmm.
Last edited by Annihitor the Incred on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uiiop
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Since when does being a republican/democrat mean you can't be a libertarian?
You're just saying these people somehow aren't a part of something without actually explaining your reasoning.

Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.

Failing to do something in itself isn't proof you don't believe in something.
For all that we know this is all an attempt to balance the budget or remake the government into something that does. Again you don't seem to at least consider the possibility of poorly implemented libertarian policy.
Not that balancing the budget is actually an important requirement. Anything that diminishes the state will do. And you can't say that's isn't exactly what happened.

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Len Hyet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am

Saiwania wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Oklahoma is fucked I'm not saying otherwise, I'm saying blaming a budget crisis on people who as a cornerstone of policy hold to balanced budgets is stupid.


Republicans never ever hold to balanced budgets in my experience (the same probably holds true for Libertarians). Just take one look at Donald Trump's outrageous budget proposals. With his tax bill he has already blown through $1 Trillion. If his policies are continued 10 years out and aren't cancelled ahead of time, the US could be seeing annual budget deficits of $2 Trillion every year.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/budget-deal-w ... r-deficits

For what has got to be the 10th time, I am not defending Republicans. I am stating that blaming the failure of Republicans and Democrats on Libertarians is stupid.
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Len Hyet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Len Hyet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:25 am

Uiiop wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.

Failing to do something in itself isn't proof you don't believe in something.
For all that we know this is all an attempt to balance the budget or remake the government into something that does. Again you don't seem to at least consider the possibility of poorly implemented libertarian policy.
Not that balancing the budget is actually an important requirement. Anything that diminishes the state will do. And you can't say that's isn't exactly what happened.

What are you on about?

The Oklahoma legislature is objectively not Libertarian. They have made no steps towards creating any Libertarian policies.

Once again, my point is, from the first freaking page, that blaming a budget failure on Libertarians, when the legislature is not Libertarian, is stupid as all hell.
=][= Founder, 1st NSG Irregulars. Si vis pacem, para bellum - Fiat justicia, et pereat mundus - Our Militia is Well Regulated and Well Lubricated!
“Think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life. Now, take what's left and live it properly. What doesn't transmit light creates its own darkness." - Marcus Aurelius, Mediations

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Uiiop
Senator
 
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Founded: Jun 20, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:27 am

Olthar wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Because they conclusively failed to balance the budget, or legalize weed, or stop Abstinence-only education, or do anything remotely Libertarian. I'll give you that there may be a Libertarian or two in the legislature, fine, but the legislature is objectively not Libertarian.

So, people enacting libertarian policies are only actually libertarian if everything works perfectly? Any instance of libertarianism failing is just an example of No True Libertarian? You must have those goal posts welded to a high speed rail system.

I guess he thinks fiscal conservation/social liberialism is core tent of all libertarianism when Hoppe and the Socialist at least complicate that picture.

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Annihitor the Incred
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:28 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Failing to do something in itself isn't proof you don't believe in something.
For all that we know this is all an attempt to balance the budget or remake the government into something that does. Again you don't seem to at least consider the possibility of poorly implemented libertarian policy.
Not that balancing the budget is actually an important requirement. Anything that diminishes the state will do. And you can't say that's isn't exactly what happened.

What are you on about?

The Oklahoma legislature is objectively not Libertarian. They have made no steps towards creating any Libertarian policies.

Once again, my point is, from the first freaking page, that blaming a budget failure on Libertarians, when the legislature is not Libertarian, is stupid as all hell.

You're talking past each-other. He's just saying that whatever diminishes the government is libertarian.
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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:29 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:Wait, since when does prison have to cost money? What exactly costs so much that cannot be covered by profits from it? And why is it considered on par with schools and roads? Hmm, mmm.


Paying people to work there.

Nobody wants to get a job as a CO. Unless they throw in huge cash bonuses. Even then the turnover rate is pretty terrible.
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Sovaal
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Sovaal » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:31 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:Wait, since when does prison have to cost money? What exactly costs so much that cannot be covered by profits from it? And why is it considered on par with schools and roads? Hmm, mmm.

Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

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Annihitor the Incred
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Annihitor the Incred » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:32 am

Sovaal wrote:
Annihitor the Incred wrote:Wait, since when does prison have to cost money? What exactly costs so much that cannot be covered by profits from it? And why is it considered on par with schools and roads? Hmm, mmm.

Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.
Alignment: Chaotic Evil, no reason to hide it.

"We live in a world of pig-faced chariot archers."

Resident metaversal conqueror and Keter-class memetic hazard.

Cerussite wrote:Reasons why the human race should be extinct, for creating this abomination of a nation.

Federated Syria wrote:"They're almost definitely what Mohammad had in mind when he described Shaytan."

United Celtic Peoples wrote:This is why we can't have nice things.

Anna Kendrick wrote:This is more than just malice.

Coutuza wrote:Terrifying memes.

Nazi Madagascar Republic wrote:eldritch edgelord

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Senkaku
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Posts: 15339
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Senkaku » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:33 am

Len Hyet wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
But the free market is meant to solve all our problems and stuff.

Government: Fails

Damn free market at it again

*lowers taxes*
*cuts govt spending*
"the free market will provide"

*long pause*

"I said the free market will provide! Aaaaany second now!"

Looks to me like the free market is taking a look at this shit and getting the fuck out of such a batshit crazy fucked up place.
Last edited by Senkaku on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Athrax wrote:
Gauthier wrote:How many times a month did Kennedy visit Dallas?


Only once. He got a mindblowing reception though

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Conserative Morality wrote:Sanders/Trump 2016

Mexico will pay for our universal healthcare!

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Uiiop
Senator
 
Posts: 4418
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Uiiop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:33 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:What are you on about?

The Oklahoma legislature is objectively not Libertarian. They have made no steps towards creating any Libertarian policies.

Once again, my point is, from the first freaking page, that blaming a budget failure on Libertarians, when the legislature is not Libertarian, is stupid as all hell.

You're talking past each-other. He's just saying that whatever diminishes the government is libertarian.

That's really the only way to define such a broad term. Though you should have added "Intentionally"
I do concede that the legislature is Only "partially libertarian" but that part is what caused this decision.
This might be silly but no more so than implicitly saying hippies wanted balanced budgets.

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Senkaku
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Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Senkaku » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:34 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it.

...no?
Why do all the things you mentioned?

Because the idea is to imprison them, not kill them or commit gross human rights abuses?
If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.

Ah yes, that's all it takes to stop escapes. :p
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Athrax wrote:
Gauthier wrote:How many times a month did Kennedy visit Dallas?


Only once. He got a mindblowing reception though

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Just try and find a seat without getting your bollocks stuck in a light socket.

Lunas Legion wrote:That's NS for you. It has 2 speeds; a rape train with no brakes or brakes with no train.

Diopolis wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Sanders/Trump 2016

Mexico will pay for our universal healthcare!

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:The strobe was a little much.

But then the beat dropped and it was just perfect.

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 2533
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:36 am

Annihitor the Incred wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Might have to do with the fact that you have to provide food, electricity, medical services, pay the guards, etc.

Hmm, strange. You can just lock them in and that's it. Why do all the things you mentioned? If bars are steel and walls concrete, they cannot escape.


Are you being serious?

Prisoners can tunnel through steel and concrete unless you have officers to keep an eye on them, do cell searches, conduct personal inspections, etc. And if there are no employees, who's going to keep the records and answer the phones?
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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 2533
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:37 am

Senkaku wrote:
Len Hyet wrote:Government: Fails

Damn free market at it again

*lowers taxes*
*cuts govt spending*
"the free market will provide"

*long pause*

"I said the free market will provide! Aaaaany second now!"

Looks to me like the free market is taking a look at this shit and getting the fuck out of such a batshit crazy fucked up place.


Corporate tax rates are extremely low here (that's the only way OK can compete with neighboring Texas). I have no idea where you got this impression that companies are just up and leaving.
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Irona
Minister
 
Posts: 2300
Founded: Dec 27, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Irona » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:39 am

Nobody’s saying that Oklahoma is an example of a libertarian society. What we are saying is that it refutes a core premise of libertarianism. That when the government gets smaller the free market will step up and make sure society doesn’t turn into a shit hole. This is the perfect example of how smaller government is bad.

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