Postgender

[The Parkus Empire]

> gender is a social construct
> transgenders claim to be born with the brain of the opposite gender

you're thinking with the binary mindset. there are cultures that don't (and didn't) even have binary gender systems.

There are cultures that believe a lot of things. Gender is not simply performative, we know that now.

[Liriena]

you're thinking with the binary mindset. there are cultures that don't (and didn't) even have binary gender systems.

There are cultures that believe a lot of things. Gender is not simply performative, we know that now.

According to...?

[The Parkus Empire]

There are cultures that believe a lot of things. Gender is not simply performative, we know that now.

According to...?

Medical science? Derp. What do you think gender dysphoria is? Do you think it's something just caused by social conditions?

[Liriena]

According to...?

Medical science? Derp. What do you think gender dysphoria is? Do you think it's something just caused by social conditions?

The APA is very clear in stating that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, though. And yes, societal factors probably do play a large role in it. Don't be reductionist, yo.

[Annihitor the Incred]

Medical science? Derp. What do you think gender dysphoria is? Do you think it's something just caused by social conditions?

The APA is very clear in stating that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, though. And yes, societal factors probably do play a large role in it. Don't be reductionist, yo.

Reductionism is the foundation of scientific theory. Trie to bring in all things and you have not a theory but infinite tale of reality.

[The Parkus Empire]

Medical science? Derp. What do you think gender dysphoria is? Do you think it's something just caused by social conditions?

The APA is very clear in stating that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, though. And yes, societal factors probably do play a large role in it. Don't be reductionist, yo.

I fail to see how social factors would make me suddenly become a woman inside even though I was a man before--could you give an example of how that would work?

[Liriena]

The APA is very clear in stating that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, though. And yes, societal factors probably do play a large role in it. Don't be reductionist, yo.

I fail to see how social factors would make me suddenly become a woman inside even though I was a man before--could you give an example of how that would work?

Gender is a social construct, meaning that how we experience our own gender individually is largely conditioned by how society constructs gender. That might explain why different societies approach gender and sexuality differently. While we modern Westerners have largely treated human sexuality and gender as medical issues and categorized them in medical and biological terms, because modern Western thought was largely built on positivism, other societies don't recognize our categories. While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone. We don't really know if LGBT+ people are truly born this way, and the emphasis placed on the essentialist idea of being LGBT+ could be interpreted as an attempt to fit our experiences into the mold of modern Western positivism.

Social factors won't necessarily "make you suddenly become a woman inside even though you were a man before", but they can certainly influence what you learn to perceive as manhood and womanhood, and how you thus perceive manhood and womanhood in your own experiences.

[The Parkus Empire]

Gender is a social construct,

Nope, it is innate. Many people even remember experiencing it before they were taught about it.

[Aillyria]

I fail to see how social factors would make me suddenly become a woman inside even though I was a man before--could you give an example of how that would work?

Gender is a social construct, meaning that how we experience our own gender individually is largely conditioned by how society constructs gender. That might explain why different societies approach gender and sexuality differently. While we modern Westerners have largely treated human sexuality and gender as medical issues and categorized them in medical and biological terms, because modern Western thought was largely built on positivism, other societies don't recognize our categories. While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone. We don't really know if LGBT+ people are truly born this way, and the emphasis placed on the essentialist idea of being LGBT+ could be interpreted as an attempt to fit our experiences into the mold of modern Western positivism.

Social factors won't necessarily "make you suddenly become a woman inside even though you were a man before", but they can certainly influence what you learn to perceive as manhood and womanhood, and how you thus perceive manhood and womanhood in your own experiences.

If gender is a construct, and lacks an objective reality, then being trans in the first place is impossible. According to that logic gender doesn't exist and has no identifiable attributes either way and trans people getting SRS would be a shallow aesthetic choice instead of a deeply personal one to bring us closer to how we feel internally.

[Liriena]

Gender is a social construct, meaning that how we experience our own gender individually is largely conditioned by how society constructs gender. That might explain why different societies approach gender and sexuality differently. While we modern Westerners have largely treated human sexuality and gender as medical issues and categorized them in medical and biological terms, because modern Western thought was largely built on positivism, other societies don't recognize our categories. While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone. We don't really know if LGBT+ people are truly born this way, and the emphasis placed on the essentialist idea of being LGBT+ could be interpreted as an attempt to fit our experiences into the mold of modern Western positivism.

Social factors won't necessarily "make you suddenly become a woman inside even though you were a man before", but they can certainly influence what you learn to perceive as manhood and womanhood, and how you thus perceive manhood and womanhood in your own experiences.

If gender is a construct, and lacks an objective reality, then being trans in the first place is impossible. According to that logic gender doesn't exist and has no identifiable attributes either way and trans people getting SRS would be a shallow aesthetic choice instead of a deeply personal one to bring us closer to how we feel internally.

Ummm... you are making a lot of conclusions out of a simple statement. Gender does exist. Social constructs aren't immaterial; they have real, deep, physical effects on how we live.

Also, as I said, we know that there might be some biological basis to being trans, and even if gender is a social construct, that doesn't mean gender dysphoria is not important or that trans people don't need the ability to make this deeply personal choice that enables them to experience their gender more comfortably both internally and externally.

[The Parkus Empire]

If gender is a construct, and lacks an objective reality, then being trans in the first place is impossible. According to that logic gender doesn't exist and has no identifiable attributes either way and trans people getting SRS would be a shallow aesthetic choice instead of a deeply personal one to bring us closer to how we feel internally.

Ummm... you are making a lot of conclusions out of a simple statement. Gender does exist. Social constructs aren't immaterial; they have real, deep, physical effects on how we live.

Also, as I said, we know that there might be some biological basis to being trans, and even if gender is a social construct, that doesn't mean gender dysphoria is not important or that trans people don't need the ability to make this deeply personal choice that enables them to experience their gender more comfortably both internally and externally.

Gender is innate.

[Liriena]

Gender is a social construct,

Nope, it is innate. Many people even remember experiencing it before they were taught about it.

From the same post of mine:

While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone.

Also, gender isn't just actively "taught" to us in schools or in Wikipedia. Like everything else, we learn it in our own way by living in society long before we are given the vocabulary to define it. We learn about womanhood and manhood from those around us since our infancy, even if we don't understand them in those specific terms.

[Liriena]

Ummm... you are making a lot of conclusions out of a simple statement. Gender does exist. Social constructs aren't immaterial; they have real, deep, physical effects on how we live.

Also, as I said, we know that there might be some biological basis to being trans, and even if gender is a social construct, that doesn't mean gender dysphoria is not important or that trans people don't need the ability to make this deeply personal choice that enables them to experience their gender more comfortably both internally and externally.

Gender is innate.

Repeating a three-word claim over and over is not a counter-argument.

[The Parkus Empire]

Nope, it is innate. Many people even remember experiencing it before they were taught about it.

From the same post of mine:

While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone.

Also, gender isn't just actively "taught" to us in schools or in Wikipedia. Like everything else, we learn it in our own way by living in society long before we are given the vocabulary to define it. We learn about womanhood and manhood from those around us since our infancy, even if we don't understand them in those specific terms.

No, no, no. It's not something you simply learn how to perform, it's fundamental to your being.

[UKCS]

We know more about the world's deepest ocean trenches and the surface of the moon than we do the Human brain.

Who are you to say that such things are not possible?

[Liriena]

From the same post of mine:

While there is an argument to be made that being trans has some manner of biological basis, this is hardly set in stone.

Also, gender isn't just actively "taught" to us in schools or in Wikipedia. Like everything else, we learn it in our own way by living in society long before we are given the vocabulary to define it. We learn about womanhood and manhood from those around us since our infancy, even if we don't understand them in those specific terms.

No, no, no. It's not something you simply learn how to perform, it's fundamental to your being.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, tho

[The Parkus Empire]

We know more about the world's deepest ocean trenches and the surface of the moon than we do the Human brain.

Who are you to say that such things are not possible?

Virtually anything is possible, but I won't entertain every single possibility, I entertain possibilities only after having good reason to do so.

[The Parkus Empire]

No, no, no. It's not something you simply learn how to perform, it's fundamental to your being.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, tho

Kind of not, no. Legs are fundamental to your being, but you learn how to use them. But we don't say legs are purely performative.

[Webus]

seems to me that gender and sex are different things. idk why people have a problem with that

[Aillyria]

We know more about the world's deepest ocean trenches and the surface of the moon than we do the Human brain.

Who are you to say that such things are not possible?

Because, humans can't be "post gendered". If you are you're a robot or some other creature.

seems to me that gender and sex are different things. idk why people have a problem with that

That's not the issue. It's the idea that someone can mystically "transcend" gender and be something completely alien.

[Liriena]

seems to me that gender and sex are different things. idk why people have a problem with that

That's not the issue. It's the idea that someone can mystically "transcend" gender and be something completely alien.

I'm pretty sure post-genderism is mostly aspirational, not a supposed ability in the here and now. And though I don't think gender abolitionism will ever become a reality, I don't think it's inherently impossible... just extremely complicated, like trying to permanently eliminate all currency.

[Coesu]

I'm opposed to gender *roles* but not gender as a concept.

[Mostly Idiots]

I have no problem with people with diagnosed gender dysphoria getting the medical treatment that they need i.e. a sex-change and I tend to follow the ideology of if someone isn't harming anyone physically or psychologically then let them do what they please, but when it comes to these people who don't actually have gender dysphoria claiming to be whatever gender they please in order to make themselves feel special, I stand against it. The main reason is that not only are they trying to bend the laws of human biology in order to fit their twisted social movement and desire for attention, but they are also getting children involved. Little, young, easily-impressionable kids. Their stupid virtue-signaling has gone so far that they are claiming that children who believe in Santa Claus and fairies and would eat ice-cream all day, every day if they could are capable of recognizing that they feel as if they were born as the wrong gender and that it is not just a figure of their overactive imagination or their own desire for attention and to feel special and validated and that they are in need of starting to undergo a sex-change at the tender age of 11. It isn't clear what the psychological effects of these premature transitions are but I can only assume that they will not be good. Similar to that boy who had botched circumcision when he was young and so the surgeon decided to remove his genitals all together and put him through hormone therapy in order to make him a "woman". The boy grew up very unhappy and ended up going through a reverse sex-change in his teenage years but it wasn't the same as actually being a man from the beginning and he committed suicide several years later (sorry, I can't remember the boys name but it's a famous case, you might have heard of it).

[Liriena]

I have no problem with people with diagnosed gender dysphoria getting the medical treatment that they need i.e. a sex-change and I tend to follow the ideology of if someone isn't harming anyone physically or psychologically then let them do what they please, but when it comes to these people who don't actually have gender dysphoria claiming to be whatever gender they please in order to make themselves feel special, I stand against it. The main reason is that not only are they trying to bend the laws of human biology in order to fit their twisted social movement and desire for attention, but they are also getting children involved. Little, young, easily-impressionable kids. Their stupid virtue-signaling has gone so far that they are claiming that children who believe in Santa Claus and fairies and would eat ice-cream all day, every day if they could are capable of recognizing that they feel as if they were born as the wrong gender and that it is not just a figure of their overactive imagination or their own desire for attention and to feel special and validated and that they are in need of starting to undergo a sex-change at the tender age of 11. It isn't clear what the psychological effects of these premature transitions are but I can only assume that they will not be good. Similar to that boy who had botched circumcision when he was young and so the surgeon decided to remove his genitals all together and put him through hormone therapy in order to make him a "woman". The boy grew up very unhappy and ended up going through a reverse sex-change in his teenage years but it wasn't the same as actually being a man from the beginning and he committed suicide several years later (sorry, I can't remember the boys name but it's a famous case, you might have heard of it).

Sources? Paragraphs? Who needs them?

[The Parkus Empire]

That's not the issue. It's the idea that someone can mystically "transcend" gender and be something completely alien.

I'm pretty sure post-genderism is mostly aspirational, not a supposed ability in the here and now. And though I don't think gender abolitionism will ever become a reality, I don't think it's inherently impossible... just extremely complicated, like trying to permanently eliminate all currency.

Currency is not something you come out of the womb with. I also fail to see why anyone would be so psychotic as to want to abolish gender.