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Anti Capitalist Discussion Thread I: Seize the toothbrushes!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What form of Anti Capitalist economic system do you support? (More than one poll option)

State/Central Planning (Socialism)
39
15%
Decentralised Planning (Socialism)
33
13%
Market Socialism
38
15%
Mutualism (Anarchist Market Socialism)
19
8%
Syndicalism (Anarchist or state based)
43
17%
Higher Stage Communism
24
10%
Distributism
18
7%
Other (Please State)
20
8%
Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism
12
5%
Primitivism
6
2%
 
Total votes : 252

User avatar
New Emeline
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:46 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
In fact capitalism under a strong rule of law is uniquely equipped to handle such problems. Where you see the most pollution occur, in the oceans for example, is due to the lack of property rights.


And the lack of a thoroughly destroyed environment in the United States is because of property rights and not Teddy Roosevelt's environmental policies protecting most of the land, amirite? :^)

A lot of capitalists genuinely want national parks to be privatized so....
(Edit: for clarification, I am most definitely NOT in favor of that)
Last edited by New Emeline on Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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West Leas Oros
Minister
 
Posts: 2597
Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:48 pm

New Emeline wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And the lack of a thoroughly destroyed environment in the United States is because of property rights and not Teddy Roosevelt's environmental policies protecting most of the land, amirite? :^)

A lot of capitalists genuinely want national parks to be privatized so....

They wouldn't be "national" parks if they were privatized... and why would you privatize land if you weren't going to develop it?
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

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New Emeline
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Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:49 pm

West Leas Oros wrote:
New Emeline wrote:A lot of capitalists genuinely want national parks to be privatized so....

They wouldn't be "national" parks if they were privatized... and why would you privatize land if you weren't going to develop it?

Some of them don't care if they get bulldozed.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21354
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:52 pm

New Emeline wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And the lack of a thoroughly destroyed environment in the United States is because of property rights and not Teddy Roosevelt's environmental policies protecting most of the land, amirite? :^)

A lot of capitalists genuinely want national parks to be privatized so....
(Edit: for clarification, I am most definitely NOT in favor of that)


Which is stupid, obviously. The national park system is bae, thanks daddy Roosevelt <3
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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New Emeline
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Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:53 pm

Torrocca wrote:
New Emeline wrote:A lot of capitalists genuinely want national parks to be privatized so....
(Edit: for clarification, I am most definitely NOT in favor of that)


Which is stupid, obviously. The national park system is bae, thanks daddy Roosevelt <3

What do you mean it's stupid? Who cares about all those dumb animals and stupid pristine mountain ranges? /s

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11490
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:53 pm

New Emeline wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
All that you mention are failures of the court system, not "capitalism."

In fact capitalism under a strong rule of law is uniquely equipped to handle such problems. Where you see the most pollution occur, in the oceans for example, is due to the lack of property rights.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union's attempt at central planning completely dried up the Aral Sea.

Pollution is due to lack of property rights? That's a new one...

Yes, actually.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
New Emeline
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
New Emeline wrote:Pollution is due to lack of property rights? That's a new one...

Yes, actually.

And what if I want to pollute on my property and it just so happens to leach into everyone else's?

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Irona
Minister
 
Posts: 2313
Founded: Dec 27, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Irona » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:56 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
New Emeline wrote:Pollution is due to lack of property rights? That's a new one...

Yes, actually.

Polluters should be responsible for their pollution. They own it. So they should pay for the damage it causes.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21354
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:57 pm

New Emeline wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Which is stupid, obviously. The national park system is bae, thanks daddy Roosevelt <3

What do you mean it's stupid? Who cares about all those dumb animals and stupid pristine mountain ranges? /s


A truer man than any of us can ever aspire to be, that's who cares. <3
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
New Emeline
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:58 pm

Torrocca wrote:
New Emeline wrote:What do you mean it's stupid? Who cares about all those dumb animals and stupid pristine mountain ranges? /s


A truer man than any of us can ever aspire to be, that's who cares. <3

Oh, I know. I was being sarcastic don't worry. Gotta love ol' Teddy. (At least for that)

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21354
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:01 pm

New Emeline wrote:

Oh, I know. I was being sarcastic don't worry. Gotta love ol' Teddy. (At least for that)


I know :P

Can't let anyone disparage ol' Teddy's good nature-lovin' name though... :^)
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11490
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:11 pm

New Emeline wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Yes, actually.

And what if I want to pollute on my property and it just so happens to leach into everyone else's?

That would be a violation and ought to be punished.
Irona wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Yes, actually.

Polluters should be responsible for their pollution. They own it. So they should pay for the damage it causes.

Exactly.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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USS Monitor
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27094
Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:07 pm

West Leas Oros wrote:
Aillyria wrote:It makes sense to think a socialist wouldn't be in an anti-capitalist thread........

Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.


*** 1 day ban for flaming ***
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
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Cekoviu
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:40 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
New Emeline wrote:Pollution is due to lack of property rights? That's a new one...

Yes, actually.

I refuse to visit that website. If my ISP saw me browsing it, I'd be so embarrassed.
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\end{center}

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Dejanic
Senator
 
Posts: 4675
Founded: Nov 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dejanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:26 pm

West Leas Oros wrote:
Aillyria wrote:It makes sense to think a socialist wouldn't be in an anti-capitalist thread........

Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

Have you ever said anything productive? Every post you make you're bashing the Left or Socialism in some shape or form.
Last edited by Dejanic on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

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Aillyria
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Posts: 5026
Founded: Sep 13, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aillyria » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:32 pm

Dejanic wrote:
West Leas Oros wrote:Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

Have you ever said anything productive? Every post you make you're bashing the Left or Socialism in some shape or form.

He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.
Conserative Morality wrote:If RWDT were Romans, who would they be?
......
Aillyria would be Claudius. Temper + unwillingness to suffer fools + supporter of the P E O P L E + traditional legalist

West Oros wrote:GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.
Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

L/R: -5.38 L/A: +2.36 8values: Theocratic Distributist
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Cekoviu
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Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:33 pm

Aillyria wrote:
Dejanic wrote:Have you ever said anything productive? Every post you make you're bashing the Left or Socialism in some shape or form.

He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

Because God forbid we try to fix things without murdering people.
\begin{center}
\textbf{NationStates should support LaTeX}
\end{center}

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United Muscovite Nations
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16613
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:34 pm

Aillyria wrote:
Dejanic wrote:Have you ever said anything productive? Every post you make you're bashing the Left or Socialism in some shape or form.

He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

To be fair, you did advocate the murder of children.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Cekoviu
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Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:36 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Aillyria wrote:He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

To be fair, you did advocate the murder of children.

Am I missing something here?
\begin{center}
\textbf{NationStates should support LaTeX}
\end{center}

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Dejanic
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Founded: Nov 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dejanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:37 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Aillyria wrote:He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

Because God forbid we try to fix things without murdering people.

You don't know what "revolution" means.

A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in political power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time when the population rises up in revolt against the current authorities.


Please explain thoroughly, with appropriate citations and references, how this automatically involves "murdering people", along with your definition of murder.
Last edited by Dejanic on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

User avatar
Cekoviu
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:39 pm

Dejanic wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Because God forbid we try to fix things without murdering people.

You don't know what "revolution" means.

A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in political power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time when the population rises up in revolt against the current authorities.


Please explain thoroughly, with appropriate citations and references, how this automatically involves "murdering people", along with your definition of murder.

Ailyria has explicitly argued with West Leas Oros, saying that a violent (and presumably murderous) revolution is necessary. Not every leftist's idea of a revolution is the same; I am specifically addressing Ailyria's beliefs.
\begin{center}
\textbf{NationStates should support LaTeX}
\end{center}

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United Muscovite Nations
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16613
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:39 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:To be fair, you did advocate the murder of children.

Am I missing something here?

Aillyria wrote:
Luminesa wrote:That's flipping stupid, what's a child going to do by themselves?

They'll grow up to become a counterrevolutionary. Allowing them to live is a liability.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Dejanic
Senator
 
Posts: 4675
Founded: Nov 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dejanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:40 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Dejanic wrote:You don't know what "revolution" means.



Please explain thoroughly, with appropriate citations and references, how this automatically involves "murdering people", along with your definition of murder.

Ailyria has explicitly argued with West Leas Oros, saying that a violent (and presumably murderous) revolution is necessary. Not every leftist's idea of a revolution is the same; I am specifically addressing Ailyria's beliefs.

Got a quote? Evidence?
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

User avatar
Cekoviu
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:40 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Am I missing something here?

Aillyria wrote:They'll grow up to become a counterrevolutionary. Allowing them to live is a liability.

Ah, I see.
Dejanic, note this as well.
\begin{center}
\textbf{NationStates should support LaTeX}
\end{center}

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Cekoviu
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6403
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:40 pm

Dejanic wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Ailyria has explicitly argued with West Leas Oros, saying that a violent (and presumably murderous) revolution is necessary. Not every leftist's idea of a revolution is the same; I am specifically addressing Ailyria's beliefs.

Got a quote? Evidence?

Uhh, I'll have to dig through the last 10 or so pages of the LWDT.
Just look at the quote UMN just posted, that should be sufficient.
\begin{center}
\textbf{NationStates should support LaTeX}
\end{center}

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