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Anti Capitalist Discussion Thread I: Seize the toothbrushes!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What form of Anti Capitalist economic system do you support? (More than one poll option)

State/Central Planning (Socialism)
39
15%
Decentralised Planning (Socialism)
33
13%
Market Socialism
38
15%
Mutualism (Anarchist Market Socialism)
19
8%
Syndicalism (Anarchist or state based)
43
17%
Higher Stage Communism
24
10%
Distributism
18
7%
Other (Please State)
20
8%
Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism
12
5%
Primitivism
6
2%
 
Total votes : 252

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:44 pm

The Grene Knyght wrote:
Aramtal Urla Credets wrote:Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

Human nature? I've never heard of her.


Karultural Merkel's downfall was forgetting about hoomint nature!
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
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"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
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Orostan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:01 pm

Aramtal Urla Credets wrote:Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

>using socialist imagery on flag while complaining about socialists
how predictable of a right winger

Humans behave differently under different material conditions. There is no human nature but to be social - and even that is debatable.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN

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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Grene Knyght wrote:Human nature? I've never heard of her.


Karultural Merkel's downfall was forgetting about hoomint nature!


Damn hoomans, trying to eliminate profit.
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Kubra
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:42 pm

Aramtal Urla Credets wrote:Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham
>primitivism ignores human nature
Wut
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Grenartia
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Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:50 pm

Kubra wrote:
Aramtal Urla Credets wrote:Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham
>primitivism ignores human nature
Wut


To be fair, it does. If we as a species were satisfied with the lifestyle we would have been living in before we even had fire, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And ultimately, that's the ultimate refutation of any utility primitivism has. There's a reason we have technology and society.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
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Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
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36 Camera Perspective
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Ex-Nation

Postby 36 Camera Perspective » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:47 pm

The Grene Knyght wrote:
36 Camera Perspective wrote:Short of nuclear weapons, socialism is the best way to destroy the economic and political life of a nation.

Why not both?

[img]Posadas.PNG[/img]


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UniversalCommons
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:43 pm

Chestaan wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:Tell me, if 47% of jobs are replaceable in the next decade with automation and this number will increase in the coming years, why is that not discussed as a major economic issue. It can't be solved with the standard models. Socialism does not have answer for when capital replaces labor which is happening right now. In the socialist system and communist system labor is supposed to replace capital, but it is not what is happening in the world. The opposite is happening. The way things are going, there will be far fewer workers, just like there are far fewer farmers. Only a small amount of workers will be needed to produce all the goods and services, just like only a few farmers grow food in the industrialized countries. There will not be enough workers to have a workers state... What emerges will be different.


Isn't that exactly what Marx predicted? An ever-growing pool of unemployed labour leading to the inevitable proletarian revolt?


Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.
Last edited by UniversalCommons on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kubra
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Posts: 11034
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:44 pm

UniversalCommons wrote:
Chestaan wrote:
Isn't that exactly what Marx predicted? An ever-growing pool of unemployed labour leading to the inevitable proletarian revolt?


Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.
>Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers
oh you mean like every process of industrialisation to date
I mean, he didn't predict it, given that it was a process more or less completed in Great Britain by the time he began writing Capital.
Last edited by Kubra on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21279
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:22 am

Kubra wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:
Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.
>Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers
oh you mean like every process of industrialisation to date
I mean, he didn't predict it, given that it was a process more or less completed in Great Britain by the time he began writing Capital.


British industrialization don't real, that's why the entirety of Britannia is still a gray, unwelcoming land of Celtic tribes *nod*
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Hyperborja
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Oct 12, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Hyperborja » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:59 am

Valentine Z wrote:
But... seeing Rich Kids of Instagram/Snapchat is a totally different thing, I will say that much.

Naah. That's not the greatest hardship to endure on this planet:D
But if you're annoyed that much try this app and they will vanish like a morning fog https://spamguardapp.com/dashboard
Last edited by Hyperborja on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 am

Hakons wrote:Which of these poll options have actually been implemented? Which of these poll options have worked in the long term?

Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.
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Jute
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jute » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:31 am

Italios wrote:
Tritos Ellinikos Politismos wrote:What about far right like National Socialism and Fascism? And it's not only these two, there more than a dozen of Far right ideologies that despise Communism, where are they?

Nazism is not anti-capitalist, and though a few strains of fascism might be anti-capitalist (third positionism), being against communism is usually good indicator that something is not anti-capitalist

Is this really the common conception here? Being against communism means you can't possibly be anti-capitalist as well? Nazis were known to hate capitalism more than even Bolshevism, just see here or here. In other words, stop with the bull and quit lumping fascism, an explicitly anti-capitalist ideology that arouse from nationalist socialist tendencies, together with Capitalism.

And aside from the far-right, you can also be e.g. an anti-communist and and anti-capitalist (and anti-fascist) socialist.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:45 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Hakons wrote:Which of these poll options have actually been implemented? Which of these poll options have worked in the long term?

Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.

top kek
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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Founded: Dec 21, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Late-stage capitalism

Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:00 am

Hi again, I remember coming across comments previously on this thread about the dangers of late-stage capitalism, namely, wealth concentration, corporatism, the likes.

An article about euthanasia smells like -- globalist illuminati freemasonry one-world government new world order depopulation of pesky low-income unskilled uncompetitive westerners with heady demands such as rights and/or entitlements bogging down sluggish 1st world societies unable to cope with latw-stage capitalism's ills like rising property prices, rising costs of living, overcrowded cities, low replacement rates, deteriorating climates, droughts, storms, apocalypse,

Now suddenly assisted suicide, abortion, gay marriage, pornography, legalised pot, all make sense.

>> Let capitalism run its full course and give the poor and destitute a free ticket 'out' (of depression, family obligation, ultimately, out of life itself). Perhaps we really should accelerate studies into making a workable model for communism.

Link:
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Kubra
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:11 am

Jute wrote:
Italios wrote:Nazism is not anti-capitalist, and though a few strains of fascism might be anti-capitalist (third positionism), being against communism is usually good indicator that something is not anti-capitalist

Is this really the common conception here? Being against communism means you can't possibly be anti-capitalist as well? Nazis were known to hate capitalism more than even Bolshevism, just see here or here. In other words, stop with the bull and quit lumping fascism, an explicitly anti-capitalist ideology that arouse from nationalist socialist tendencies, together with Capitalism.

And aside from the far-right, you can also be e.g. an anti-communist and and anti-capitalist (and anti-fascist) socialist.
Given that the the nazi party pretty much solidified the domestic economic and political clout of the large congolmerates, and by extension capital, I'd say they were pretty capitalistic

The extent of nazi socialism is pretty much a chunk of social welfare programs and nationalising the banks so as to borrow out of them like a motherfucker. Otherwise, the rest of state industry was sold off to friendly local industrialists, to use as industrialists tend to use ownership within companies.

As for Strasser, you know he got str8 up murdered by the SS, yeah?
Last edited by Kubra on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Orostan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:41 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.

top kek

begone spooked american
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

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36 Camera Perspective
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Ex-Nation

Postby 36 Camera Perspective » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Kubra wrote:
36 Camera Perspective wrote:
Isn't this just a less efficient version of capitalism?
if a company we're to structure itself as such, we would not call it "less efficient capitalism". We'd be more apt to call it simply poor organization, wouldn't we? Comically poor, at that.


By what method would gosplan fix the prices?
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:33 pm

Orostan wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:top kek

begone spooked american

I'm a brazilian actually (living in brazil too if you ever shudder about that)
Awarded for Best Capitalist in 2018 NSG Awards ;')
Pro: private property, free market, minarchism, debt reduction, libertarianism, classical liberalism, fiscal orthodoxy, LGBT rights

Neutral: anarchocapitalism, neoliberalism, feminism, abortion

Against: social-democracy, corporatism, SJWs, socialism, keynesianism, political correctness, social security & medicare & medicaid

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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:49 pm

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:Hi again, I remember coming across comments previously on this thread about the dangers of late-stage capitalism, namely, wealth concentration, corporatism, the likes.

How much is too much? We had prolonged periods of massive wealth concentration before (Gilded Age being the main of them) yet no apocalypse whatsoever. Even if it's a true thesis, there is no reason to become scared since global GINI has been decreasing.

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:An article about euthanasia smells like -- globalist illuminati freemasonry one-world government new world order depopulation of pesky low-income unskilled uncompetitive westerners

You are honestly the first person I have ever seen in my life that somehow links the right of a person to kill itself due to intense medical pain to a NWO illuminati scheme of depopulation. Not that it's working anyway since global population is projected to grow for several more decades.

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:with heady demands such as rights and/or entitlements bogging down sluggish 1st world societies unable to cope with latw-stage capitalism's ills like rising property prices, rising costs of living, overcrowded cities, low replacement rates, deteriorating climates, droughts, storms, apocalypse

Deaths due to natural disasters have been decreasing throughout the world for decades. Natural disasters haven't gotten any or much worse than before, although prevention, evacuation and care for the affected improved significantly. On regards to rising property prices, (data for the US) adjusted housing prices increased a mere 45% since 1975 while adjusted GDPpc increased 114% during the same period.

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:Now suddenly assisted suicide, abortion, gay marriage, pornography, legalised pot, all make sense.

So a more liberal society is a secret plot from illuminatis to kill the bottom 99%. Wew.

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:>> Let capitalism run its full course and give the poor and destitute a free ticket 'out' (of depression, family obligation, ultimately, out of life itself).

Let capitalism run its full course so poverty rates can be dropped dramatically within 30 years while the society gets wealthier as a whole.

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:Perhaps we really should accelerate studies into making a workable model for communism.

I seriously wonder if you have any suitable model that's better than capitalism.
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Oil exporting People
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Postby Oil exporting People » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:58 pm

UniversalCommons wrote:Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income


God, I hope not.
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Aillyria
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Postby Aillyria » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Oil exporting People wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income


God, I hope not.

Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.
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......
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Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

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Oil exporting People
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Postby Oil exporting People » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:18 pm

Aillyria wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
God, I hope not.

Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.


Not even that, it's just bad policy; there's 320 Million people in America. Now multiple that by 12,000 (1,000 a month), and then compare it to current tax revenue.
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Kubra
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:43 pm

36 Camera Perspective wrote:
Kubra wrote: if a company we're to structure itself as such, we would not call it "less efficient capitalism". We'd be more apt to call it simply poor organization, wouldn't we? Comically poor, at that.


By what method would gosplan fix the prices?
lol I mean that's a good question

maybe they considered existing supply and output, projected demand for the next period against their projected output, and set the total cost to equal last periods expenditure on the commodity, adjusted for any change in the total stock of circulating rubles. That's simple enough, albeit faulty for obvious enough reasons. We can of course expand on the factors and variables involved, shorten what is defined as a period, and hire more staff to hash it out before the next given period. And then we can do so again, and again, and again, until a separate department needs to track production and output of gosplan itself, and so and so on.

though if you ask me someone on a committee said "let's drop the price by a ruble and call it a day"

Again, it ain't my business here to say the Soviet Union worked. It didn't. I'm merely clarifying how it unfunctioned and the significance of such.

And sorry if I can't give more a definitive answer here, to my knowledge anything in the soviet archives regarding the day to day economic busywork of gosplan are not available in english. Sovietology was a cold war study, the market for it more or less broke down shortly after the fall, so there's limits to what a non-russian can say on the matter.
Last edited by Kubra on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Aillyria
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Postby Aillyria » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:40 pm

Oil exporting People wrote:
Aillyria wrote:Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.


Not even that, it's just bad policy; there's 320 Million people in America. Now multiple that by 12,000 (1,000 a month), and then compare it to current tax revenue.

That too. It's a shitty idea all around.
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......
Aillyria would be Claudius. Temper + unwillingness to suffer fools + supporter of the P E O P L E + traditional legalist

West Oros wrote:GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.
Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Founded: Dec 21, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:31 am

Great Minarchistan wrote:How much is too much? (1) We had prolonged periods of massive wealth concentration before (Gilded Age being the main of them) yet no apocalypse whatsoever. Even if it's a true thesis, there is no reason to become scared since global GINI has been decreasing.

You are honestly the first person I have ever seen in my life that somehow links the right of a person to kill itself due to intense medical pain to a NWO illuminati scheme of depopulation. Not that it's working anyway since global population is projected to grow for several more decades. (2)

Deaths due to natural disasters have been decreasing throughout the world for decades. Natural disasters haven't gotten any or much worse than before, although prevention, evacuation and care for the affected improved significantly. (3) On regards to rising property prices, (data for the US) adjusted housing prices increased a mere 45% since 1975 while adjusted GDPpc increased 114% during the same period. (4)

So a more liberal society is a secret plot from illuminatis to kill the bottom 99%. Wew. (5)

Let capitalism run its full course so poverty rates can be dropped dramatically within 30 years while the society gets wealthier as a whole. (6)

I seriously wonder if you have any suitable model that's better than capitalism. (7)



(1) When government debt becomes unsustainable, or yields approach zero, or the threat of US default looms.
(2) yes, the cheap labour import kind that are easier to satisfy and ship back to their countries of origin; it's the indigenous population they are after (ironic twist of fate, might I add)
(3) yes, but damages in dollar terms have been breaking record after annual record, and the super-capitalists dread at the thought of footing the insurance bills
(4) try collating housing prices of major urban centres (esp. Western Europe), and you should see a much different picture
(5) it is ominous when you connect all the social changes sweeping through developed countries since 2001
(6) when the whole world has the same comparable standard of living, then we'll be on the cusp of the Great Socialist Revival (tm)
(7) see above

(8) actually, (6)(7) was a wistful joke. Though I personally think that the reason USSR failed was because, in a hostile world, it lacked economic vitality to compete with the capitalist west. If the whole world were communist --> problem solved!
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