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Anti Capitalist Discussion Thread I: Seize the toothbrushes!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What form of Anti Capitalist economic system do you support? (More than one poll option)

State/Central Planning (Socialism)
39
15%
Decentralised Planning (Socialism)
33
13%
Market Socialism
38
15%
Mutualism (Anarchist Market Socialism)
19
8%
Syndicalism (Anarchist or state based)
43
17%
Higher Stage Communism
24
10%
Distributism
18
7%
Other (Please State)
20
8%
Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism
12
5%
Primitivism
6
2%
 
Total votes : 252

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Aillyria
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Posts: 5026
Founded: Sep 13, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aillyria » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:59 am

Manokan Republic wrote:
Aillyria wrote:There can be no hybridization between socialism and capitalism, they are mutually exclusive concepts. Socialism and Capitalism aren't on a spectrum, there's no "more or less" of either. A system is either one or the other, full stop.

Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, basically all of Europe and even the U.S... no hybrids you say? xP

The Nordic Model and Social Democracy are capitalist...there's literally nothing socialist about them....and no universal healthcare and welfare aren't socialism.
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West Oros wrote:GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.
Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

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Irona
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Founded: Dec 27, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Irona » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:31 am

Aillyria wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, basically all of Europe and even the U.S... no hybrids you say? xP

The Nordic Model and Social Democracy are capitalist...there's literally nothing socialist about them....and no universal healthcare and welfare aren't socialism.

Lots of Social Democratic party's have the long term aim of transitioning to a Socialist state.

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Bakery Hill
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Posts: 11973
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakery Hill » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:41 am

Irona wrote:
Aillyria wrote:The Nordic Model and Social Democracy are capitalist...there's literally nothing socialist about them....and no universal healthcare and welfare aren't socialism.

Lots of Social Democratic party's have the long term aim of transitioning to a Socialist state.

"long term aims"

hmmm
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Irona
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Founded: Dec 27, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Irona » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:50 am

Bakery Hill wrote:
Irona wrote:Lots of Social Democratic party's have the long term aim of transitioning to a Socialist state.

"long term aims"

hmmm

It’s still part of the ideology. They just accept that it’s not desirable to do it right now.

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Bakery Hill
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Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakery Hill » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:00 am

Irona wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:"long term aims"

hmmm

It’s still part of the ideology. They just accept that it’s not desirable to do it right now.

Every major social democratic party I know, excepting recently the UK, is now neoliberal, many to the point that they've consciously expunged references to socialism from their party documents. The few that keep them out of habit or inertia show no sign of wanting to move towards socialism, their leading figures often consciously denouncing socialism when the question arises.
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Irona
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Founded: Dec 27, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Irona » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:26 am

Bakery Hill wrote:
Irona wrote:It’s still part of the ideology. They just accept that it’s not desirable to do it right now.

Every major social democratic party I know, excepting recently the UK, is now neoliberal, many to the point that they've consciously expunged references to socialism from their party documents. The few that keep them out of habit or inertia show no sign of wanting to move towards socialism, their leading figures often consciously denouncing socialism when the question arises.

That might have been true in the 90’s or early 2000’s but there’s been a pretty big shift post-great recession. Neo-liberalism has basically collapsed as the dominating force of Social Democratic party’s. Maybe it’s just because UK Labour is the largest English speaking party, but a similar thing has/is happening across the world.

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Bakery Hill
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Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakery Hill » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:33 am

Irona wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:Every major social democratic party I know, excepting recently the UK, is now neoliberal, many to the point that they've consciously expunged references to socialism from their party documents. The few that keep them out of habit or inertia show no sign of wanting to move towards socialism, their leading figures often consciously denouncing socialism when the question arises.

That might have been true in the 90’s or early 2000’s but there’s been a pretty big shift post-great recession. Neo-liberalism has basically collapsed as the dominating force of Social Democratic party’s. Maybe it’s just because UK Labour is the largest English speaking party, but a similar thing has/is happening across the world.

It's hold is loosening, but that's not remotely true. Insurgencies inside soc dem parties have yielded limited results, they're far more likely to collapse or slowly fall into irrelevance than have a Road to Damascus reconversion. You can see this trend in the French PS, PASOK in Greece, the Italian PD, PSOE in Spain, the German SPD and Austrian SPO, the Belgian and Dutch social democratic parties even the old Scandinavian bastions and not too mention every social democratic party in the old Eastern bloc.
Last edited by Bakery Hill on Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rostavykhan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1126
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:36 pm

Not sure if it's been brought up before, but, on the topic of parties, what about the idea of a powerful vanguard party or unit that could rally and organize Socialist/Communist workers, and work as representatives and leaders of the people?

Aillyria wrote:There's nothing to compromise, by submitting to "bipartisanship" with capitalists, you've already lost.


This.

The goal of any true Communist movement, IMO, should be in the total destruction of Capitalism through revolution, and nothing less. That's just me though.
Last edited by Rostavykhan on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Torrocca
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Posts: 21321
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 pm

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:I don't understand why you're opposed to Capitalism.


It's oppressive, exploitative, and harmful to everyone but the 1%?
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I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Posts: 38537
Founded: Oct 18, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:55 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Lagomorph Supreme wrote:I don't understand why you're opposed to Capitalism.


It's oppressive, exploitative, and harmful to everyone but the 1%?

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:57 pm

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's oppressive, exploitative, and harmful to everyone but the 1%?

I'll debate you on that after i get back from work. Because i actually have a job.


>At work
>Posting on NS

You're serving your capitalist master well I see. :^)
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Webus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 478
Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Webus » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:01 am

I put several other things as well as other, since I am partial to guild socialism.
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The Liberated Territories
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Posts: 11212
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:52 am

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:Okay, so why is Capitalism bad again?


Have to get up at 6 in the morning instead of sleeping in.

T. First world capitalism
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The Empire of Pretantia
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Oct 18, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:55 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Lagomorph Supreme wrote:Okay, so why is Capitalism bad again?


Have to get up at 6 in the morning instead of sleeping in.

T. First world capitalism

Absolutely exploitative.
ywn be as good as this video
Gacha
Trashing other people's waifus
Anti-NN
EA
Douche flutes
Zimbabwe
Putting the toilet paper roll the wrong way
Every single square inch of Asia
Lewding Earth-chan
Pollution
4Chan in all its glory and all its horror
Playing the little Switch controller handheld thing in public
Treading on me
Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, and all their cousins and sisters and brothers and wife's sons
Alternate Universe 40K
Nightcore
Comcast
Zimbabwe
Believing the Ottomans were the third Roman Empire
Parodies of the Gadsden flag
The Fate Series
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Democratic Socialists

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:51 am

Lagomorph Supreme, here's the definitions of communism and socialism
https://www.britannica.com/topic/communism
https://www.britannica.com/topic/socialism
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Trotskylvania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:Okay, so why is Capitalism bad again?

In order of importance:
The necessity of capital to circulate and expand demands ever increasing exploitation of human and natural resources.
This means the destruction of the biosphere, and ultimately the destruction of human civilization itself.
In our day to day life, it means that wages will trend towards subsistence
It also means that capitalism will always produce crisis, and that crisis causes immense human suffering
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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:In order of importance:
The necessity of capital to circulate and expand demands ever increasing exploitation of human and natural resources.
This means the destruction of the biosphere, and ultimately the destruction of human civilization itself.
In our day to day life, it means that wages will trend towards subsistence
It also means that capitalism will always produce crisis, and that crisis causes immense human suffering

That's the modern state of things, mobster Capitalism. Can't we just have small businesses take over the market?


Nah, that's just regular capitalism. Competition naturally requires a winner, and capitalism is competition.

You'll just see the same cycle repeated if you broke all the big businesses.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:50 pm

Lagomorph Supreme wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Nah, that's just regular capitalism. Competition naturally requires a winner, and capitalism is competition.

You'll just see the same cycle repeated if you broke all the big businesses.

Well, that's just like, your opinion dude.


Nope, it's the truth. Can't have competition without someone winning eventually, and since capitalism necessitates competition there's bound to be a winner somewhere. :^)
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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UniversalCommons
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Founded: Jan 24, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:32 pm

A major problem with capitalism is that it has too many externalities, it does not factor in the costs of pollution, environmental damage, or costs associated with crime. There are no values attached to the cost of clear cutting, mismanagement of forests, health damage caused by chemicals, and similar issues. This is a major failing of pure capitalism. Like automation, it does not factor in the human costs. It is possible to have a better place to live with lower GDP because of the problems with externalities. You could have a country with less crime, a cleaner environment, more public spaces like museums and parks, and better income distribution with a slightly lower GDP.

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West Leas Oros
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Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:01 pm

Aillyria wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:To be honest, I would love a hybrid between a socialist and a capitalist economy. Socialist as in maybe a high tax rate to maintain the free healthcare, public transport, and healthcare. And maybe to distribute the wealth evenly. It's totally not because I am jealous of millionaires or billionaires. I'm sure that what they did in the past earns them the cash.

But... seeing Rich Kids of Instagram/Snapchat is a totally different thing, I will say that much.

At the same time, maybe a healthy dose of capitalism; not too much, but enough to drive forward innovation.

There can be no hybridization between socialism and capitalism, they are mutually exclusive concepts. Socialism and Capitalism aren't on a spectrum, there's no "more or less" of either. A system is either one or the other, full stop.

West Leas Oros wrote:Probably because a bipartisan solution requires compromise. *shudders* The Horror!

There's nothing to compromise, by submitting to "bipartisanship" with capitalists, you've already lost.

GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
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Aillyria
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Posts: 5026
Founded: Sep 13, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aillyria » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:04 pm

West Leas Oros wrote:
Aillyria wrote:There can be no hybridization between socialism and capitalism, they are mutually exclusive concepts. Socialism and Capitalism aren't on a spectrum, there's no "more or less" of either. A system is either one or the other, full stop.


There's nothing to compromise, by submitting to "bipartisanship" with capitalists, you've already lost.

GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.

It makes sense to think a socialist wouldn't be in an anti-capitalist thread........
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......
Aillyria would be Claudius. Temper + unwillingness to suffer fools + supporter of the P E O P L E + traditional legalist

West Oros wrote:GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.
Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".

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The Liberated Territories
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Posts: 11212
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 pm

UniversalCommons wrote:A major problem with capitalism is that it has too many externalities, it does not factor in the costs of pollution, environmental damage, or costs associated with crime. There are no values attached to the cost of clear cutting, mismanagement of forests, health damage caused by chemicals, and similar issues. This is a major failing of pure capitalism. Like automation, it does not factor in the human costs. It is possible to have a better place to live with lower GDP because of the problems with externalities. You could have a country with less crime, a cleaner environment, more public spaces like museums and parks, and better income distribution with a slightly lower GDP.


All that you mention are failures of the court system, not "capitalism."

In fact capitalism under a strong rule of law is uniquely equipped to handle such problems. Where you see the most pollution occur, in the oceans for example, is due to the lack of property rights.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union's attempt at central planning completely dried up the Aral Sea.
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New Emeline
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Posts: 6280
Founded: Jan 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New Emeline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:39 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:A major problem with capitalism is that it has too many externalities, it does not factor in the costs of pollution, environmental damage, or costs associated with crime. There are no values attached to the cost of clear cutting, mismanagement of forests, health damage caused by chemicals, and similar issues. This is a major failing of pure capitalism. Like automation, it does not factor in the human costs. It is possible to have a better place to live with lower GDP because of the problems with externalities. You could have a country with less crime, a cleaner environment, more public spaces like museums and parks, and better income distribution with a slightly lower GDP.


All that you mention are failures of the court system, not "capitalism."

In fact capitalism under a strong rule of law is uniquely equipped to handle such problems. Where you see the most pollution occur, in the oceans for example, is due to the lack of property rights.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union's attempt at central planning completely dried up the Aral Sea.

Pollution is due to lack of property rights? That's a new one...

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West Leas Oros
Minister
 
Posts: 2597
Founded: Jul 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:41 pm

Aillyria wrote:
West Leas Oros wrote:GOD DAMMIT! I thought you wouldn't be here.

It makes sense to think a socialist wouldn't be in an anti-capitalist thread........

Well you aren't a real socialist. Just a sociopath disguised as one.
Not to mention that this thread split off from LWDT, so I assumed you would think this thread was a "revisionist hellhole".
Last edited by West Leas Oros on Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just your friendly neighborhood democratic socialist revisionist traitor.
PMT nation. Economically to the left of Karl Marx. Social justice is a bourgeois plot.
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like fascists and communists. Or libertarians and communists. Or social democrats and communists. Or communists and other communists! Damn commies, they ruined communism!"

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Oros, no. Please. You were the chosen one. You were meant to debunk the tankies, not join them. Bring balance to the left, not leave it in darkness.

WLO Public News: Protest turns violent as Orosian Anarchists burn building. 2 found dead, 8 injured. Investigation continues.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21321
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:42 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:A major problem with capitalism is that it has too many externalities, it does not factor in the costs of pollution, environmental damage, or costs associated with crime. There are no values attached to the cost of clear cutting, mismanagement of forests, health damage caused by chemicals, and similar issues. This is a major failing of pure capitalism. Like automation, it does not factor in the human costs. It is possible to have a better place to live with lower GDP because of the problems with externalities. You could have a country with less crime, a cleaner environment, more public spaces like museums and parks, and better income distribution with a slightly lower GDP.


In fact capitalism under a strong rule of law is uniquely equipped to handle such problems. Where you see the most pollution occur, in the oceans for example, is due to the lack of property rights.


And the lack of a thoroughly destroyed environment in the United States is because of property rights and not Teddy Roosevelt's environmental policies protecting most of the land, amirite? :^)
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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