Anti Capitalist Discussion Thread I: Seize the toothbrushes!

[Torrocca]

Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

Human nature? I've never heard of her.

Karultural Merkel's downfall was forgetting about hoomint nature!

[Orostan]

Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

>using socialist imagery on flag while complaining about socialists
how predictable of a right winger

Humans behave differently under different material conditions. There is no human nature but to be social - and even that is debatable.

[Grenartia]

Human nature? I've never heard of her.

Karultural Merkel's downfall was forgetting about hoomint nature!

Damn hoomans, trying to eliminate profit.

[Kubra]

Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

>primitivism ignores human nature
Wut

[Grenartia]

Best Ism is Minarchism.
Communists just ignore human nature so do primtivists
Socialism is a sham

>primitivism ignores human nature
Wut

To be fair, it does. If we as a species were satisfied with the lifestyle we would have been living in before we even had fire, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And ultimately, that's the ultimate refutation of any utility primitivism has. There's a reason we have technology and society.

[36 Camera Perspective]

Short of nuclear weapons, socialism is the best way to destroy the economic and political life of a nation.

Why not both?

[img]Posadas.PNG[/img]

Now we're thinking!

[UniversalCommons]

Tell me, if 47% of jobs are replaceable in the next decade with automation and this number will increase in the coming years, why is that not discussed as a major economic issue. It can't be solved with the standard models. Socialism does not have answer for when capital replaces labor which is happening right now. In the socialist system and communist system labor is supposed to replace capital, but it is not what is happening in the world. The opposite is happening. The way things are going, there will be far fewer workers, just like there are far fewer farmers. Only a small amount of workers will be needed to produce all the goods and services, just like only a few farmers grow food in the industrialized countries. There will not be enough workers to have a workers state... What emerges will be different.

Isn't that exactly what Marx predicted? An ever-growing pool of unemployed labour leading to the inevitable proletarian revolt?

Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.

[Kubra]

Isn't that exactly what Marx predicted? An ever-growing pool of unemployed labour leading to the inevitable proletarian revolt?

Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.

>Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers
oh you mean like every process of industrialisation to date
I mean, he didn't predict it, given that it was a process more or less completed in Great Britain by the time he began writing Capital.

[Torrocca]

Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers. Now we have laborers who no longer identify with labor and instead come up with things like creatives and service workers. The essential ideal is that the laborers do not identify as labor, but something else which ultimately will lead to something else entirely in a situation where you can produce far more than people can consume. Cross out the word and proletarian------ and put something else in its place. and you end up with revolt--- but what kind-- the first test case was the Occupy Wall Street and that was something else, not quite a revolt. You get a revolution. Assuming the revolution is by the people, you are more likely to get the Ukranian exampe-- eg we want non-corrupt officials that will do what we ask and follow our votes-- than a proletarian revolution. Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income or some kind of access to technologies that will be able to make most common goods up to the size of a refrigerator cheaply in a local shop. It will probably be a demand for government that is completely responsive to the people.

A political party will not be able to control the next revolution, many of the common people will be more educated than the leadership of the country in question or the leadership of political parties. To run the machinery of every day life require more and more complex technologies which requires greater and greater education.

>Marx did not predict that when there stopped being many farms and most of the farmers moved to the city and became laborers
oh you mean like every process of industrialisation to date
I mean, he didn't predict it, given that it was a process more or less completed in Great Britain by the time he began writing Capital.

British industrialization don't real, that's why the entirety of Britannia is still a gray, unwelcoming land of Celtic tribes *nod*

[Hyperborja]

But... seeing Rich Kids of Instagram/Snapchat is a totally different thing, I will say that much.

Naah. That's not the greatest hardship to endure on this planet:D
But if you're annoyed that much try this app and they will vanish like a morning fog https://spamguardapp.com/dashboard

[Cekoviu]

Which of these poll options have actually been implemented? Which of these poll options have worked in the long term?

Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.

[Jute]

What about far right like National Socialism and Fascism? And it's not only these two, there more than a dozen of Far right ideologies that despise Communism, where are they?

Nazism is not anti-capitalist, and though a few strains of fascism might be anti-capitalist (third positionism), being against communism is usually good indicator that something is not anti-capitalist

Is this really the common conception here? Being against communism means you can't possibly be anti-capitalist as well? Nazis were known to hate capitalism more than even Bolshevism, just see here or here. In other words, stop with the bull and quit lumping fascism, an explicitly anti-capitalist ideology that arouse from nationalist socialist tendencies, together with Capitalism.

And aside from the far-right, you can also be e.g. an anti-communist and and anti-capitalist (and anti-fascist) socialist.

[Great Minarchistan]

Which of these poll options have actually been implemented? Which of these poll options have worked in the long term?

Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.

top kek

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

Hi again, I remember coming across comments previously on this thread about the dangers of late-stage capitalism, namely, wealth concentration, corporatism, the likes.

An article about euthanasia smells like -- globalist illuminati freemasonry one-world government new world order depopulation of pesky low-income unskilled uncompetitive westerners with heady demands such as rights and/or entitlements bogging down sluggish 1st world societies unable to cope with latw-stage capitalism's ills like rising property prices, rising costs of living, overcrowded cities, low replacement rates, deteriorating climates, droughts, storms, apocalypse,

Now suddenly assisted suicide, abortion, gay marriage, pornography, legalised pot, all make sense.

>> Let capitalism run its full course and give the poor and destitute a free ticket 'out' (of depression, family obligation, ultimately, out of life itself). Perhaps we really should accelerate studies into making a workable model for communism.

Link:
https://www.christianpost.com/voice/sca ... ctims.html

[Kubra]

Nazism is not anti-capitalist, and though a few strains of fascism might be anti-capitalist (third positionism), being against communism is usually good indicator that something is not anti-capitalist

Is this really the common conception here? Being against communism means you can't possibly be anti-capitalist as well? Nazis were known to hate capitalism more than even Bolshevism, just see here or here. In other words, stop with the bull and quit lumping fascism, an explicitly anti-capitalist ideology that arouse from nationalist socialist tendencies, together with Capitalism.

And aside from the far-right, you can also be e.g. an anti-communist and and anti-capitalist (and anti-fascist) socialist.

Given that the the nazi party pretty much solidified the domestic economic and political clout of the large congolmerates, and by extension capital, I'd say they were pretty capitalistic

The extent of nazi socialism is pretty much a chunk of social welfare programs and nationalising the banks so as to borrow out of them like a motherfucker. Otherwise, the rest of state industry was sold off to friendly local industrialists, to use as industrialists tend to use ownership within companies.

As for Strasser, you know he got str8 up murdered by the SS, yeah?

[Orostan]

Marxist-Leninist-Obamaism.

top kek

begone spooked american

[36 Camera Perspective]

Isn't this just a less efficient version of capitalism?

if a company we're to structure itself as such, we would not call it "less efficient capitalism". We'd be more apt to call it simply poor organization, wouldn't we? Comically poor, at that.

By what method would gosplan fix the prices?

[Great Minarchistan]

top kek

begone spooked american

I'm a brazilian actually (living in brazil too if you ever shudder about that)

[Great Minarchistan]

Hi again, I remember coming across comments previously on this thread about the dangers of late-stage capitalism, namely, wealth concentration, corporatism, the likes.

How much is too much? We had prolonged periods of massive wealth concentration before (Gilded Age being the main of them) yet no apocalypse whatsoever. Even if it's a true thesis, there is no reason to become scared since global GINI has been decreasing.

An article about euthanasia smells like -- globalist illuminati freemasonry one-world government new world order depopulation of pesky low-income unskilled uncompetitive westerners

You are honestly the first person I have ever seen in my life that somehow links the right of a person to kill itself due to intense medical pain to a NWO illuminati scheme of depopulation. Not that it's working anyway since global population is projected to grow for several more decades.

with heady demands such as rights and/or entitlements bogging down sluggish 1st world societies unable to cope with latw-stage capitalism's ills like rising property prices, rising costs of living, overcrowded cities, low replacement rates, deteriorating climates, droughts, storms, apocalypse

Deaths due to natural disasters have been decreasing throughout the world for decades. Natural disasters haven't gotten any or much worse than before, although prevention, evacuation and care for the affected improved significantly. On regards to rising property prices, (data for the US) adjusted housing prices increased a mere 45% since 1975 while adjusted GDPpc increased 114% during the same period.

Now suddenly assisted suicide, abortion, gay marriage, pornography, legalised pot, all make sense.

So a more liberal society is a secret plot from illuminatis to kill the bottom 99%. Wew.

>> Let capitalism run its full course and give the poor and destitute a free ticket 'out' (of depression, family obligation, ultimately, out of life itself).

Let capitalism run its full course so poverty rates can be dropped dramatically within 30 years while the society gets wealthier as a whole.

Perhaps we really should accelerate studies into making a workable model for communism.

I seriously wonder if you have any suitable model that's better than capitalism.

[Oil exporting People]

Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income

God, I hope not.

[Aillyria]

Maybe they will demand a Universal Basic Income

God, I hope not.

Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.

[Oil exporting People]

God, I hope not.

Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.

Not even that, it's just bad policy; there's 320 Million people in America. Now multiple that by 12,000 (1,000 a month), and then compare it to current tax revenue.

[Kubra]

if a company we're to structure itself as such, we would not call it "less efficient capitalism". We'd be more apt to call it simply poor organization, wouldn't we? Comically poor, at that.

By what method would gosplan fix the prices?

lol I mean that's a good question

maybe they considered existing supply and output, projected demand for the next period against their projected output, and set the total cost to equal last periods expenditure on the commodity, adjusted for any change in the total stock of circulating rubles. That's simple enough, albeit faulty for obvious enough reasons. We can of course expand on the factors and variables involved, shorten what is defined as a period, and hire more staff to hash it out before the next given period. And then we can do so again, and again, and again, until a separate department needs to track production and output of gosplan itself, and so and so on.

though if you ask me someone on a committee said "let's drop the price by a ruble and call it a day"

Again, it ain't my business here to say the Soviet Union worked. It didn't. I'm merely clarifying how it unfunctioned and the significance of such.

And sorry if I can't give more a definitive answer here, to my knowledge anything in the soviet archives regarding the day to day economic busywork of gosplan are not available in english. Sovietology was a cold war study, the market for it more or less broke down shortly after the fall, so there's limits to what a non-russian can say on the matter.

[Aillyria]

Agreed, I'm not keen on the idea of the whole proletariat becoming a wards of the state. Fuck that.

Not even that, it's just bad policy; there's 320 Million people in America. Now multiple that by 12,000 (1,000 a month), and then compare it to current tax revenue.

That too. It's a shitty idea all around.

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

How much is too much? (1) We had prolonged periods of massive wealth concentration before (Gilded Age being the main of them) yet no apocalypse whatsoever. Even if it's a true thesis, there is no reason to become scared since global GINI has been decreasing.

You are honestly the first person I have ever seen in my life that somehow links the right of a person to kill itself due to intense medical pain to a NWO illuminati scheme of depopulation. Not that it's working anyway since global population is projected to grow for several more decades. (2)

Deaths due to natural disasters have been decreasing throughout the world for decades. Natural disasters haven't gotten any or much worse than before, although prevention, evacuation and care for the affected improved significantly. (3) On regards to rising property prices, (data for the US) adjusted housing prices increased a mere 45% since 1975 while adjusted GDPpc increased 114% during the same period. (4)

So a more liberal society is a secret plot from illuminatis to kill the bottom 99%. Wew. (5)

Let capitalism run its full course so poverty rates can be dropped dramatically within 30 years while the society gets wealthier as a whole. (6)

I seriously wonder if you have any suitable model that's better than capitalism. (7)

(1) When government debt becomes unsustainable, or yields approach zero, or the threat of US default looms.
(2) yes, the cheap labour import kind that are easier to satisfy and ship back to their countries of origin; it's the indigenous population they are after (ironic twist of fate, might I add)
(3) yes, but damages in dollar terms have been breaking record after annual record, and the super-capitalists dread at the thought of footing the insurance bills
(4) try collating housing prices of major urban centres (esp. Western Europe), and you should see a much different picture
(5) it is ominous when you connect all the social changes sweeping through developed countries since 2001
(6) when the whole world has the same comparable standard of living, then we'll be on the cusp of the Great Socialist Revival (tm)
(7) see above

(8) actually, (6)(7) was a wistful joke. Though I personally think that the reason USSR failed was because, in a hostile world, it lacked economic vitality to compete with the capitalist west. If the whole world were communist --> problem solved!