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Trump administration bars Haitians from U.S visas

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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:05 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
It doesn't happen to enough of an extent anymore. Going back to true imperialism would be fantastic. Decolonization of Africa was a big mistake. The silver lining that we have seen since the 20th century is the world overall having become richer. The long term goal should be to aggressively develop every region of the world. Not every country can be rich but relatively speaking, it probably is possible to achieve a "good enough" standard of living in nearly every corner of the globe.

Leaving Africa undeveloped is a huge threat to the world, because we're looking at the prospect of the world's population becoming majority Black. This can't be allowed to happen. It isn't too late to put a stop to Africa's projected population explosion.


Leaving Africa undeveloped is not a threat to the world. Our mistake was with China and India - opening them up to our markets and vice versa. This allowed them to become more developed, and in the case of China, become the primary economic power today, and potentially the hegemony of tomorrow.

This all stems from the lobbying of the Old Elite in the West in attaining lower quality and lower priced labour across the world with little regulation and low running costs and every incentive to outsource and export instead.

The world was ruined by Nixon. The ending of Western economic imperialism, the admission of Rest of the World to Western markets and the ending of Bretton Woods. There is a reason why real household earnings of Americans rose 1940-1970 then flatlined until today, and it will only get worse into the future.

Besides, it is clear that the Chinese system of government has only been reinforced by the recent mass development of PRC. God knows what they will use that power for in 20 or 30 years when they'll be two to three times the size of the United States. We already have a good idea from the South China Sea and the Confucius Institute.

Good. The West needs to stop being greedy and let other nations breath for once.
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This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:38 am

Trumptonium wrote:The Haitians in the article are not exactly countering Trump's argument.

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Trumptonium
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Postby Trumptonium » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:13 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Trumptonium wrote:
Leaving Africa undeveloped is not a threat to the world. Our mistake was with China and India - opening them up to our markets and vice versa. This allowed them to become more developed, and in the case of China, become the primary economic power today, and potentially the hegemony of tomorrow.

This all stems from the lobbying of the Old Elite in the West in attaining lower quality and lower priced labour across the world with little regulation and low running costs and every incentive to outsource and export instead.

The world was ruined by Nixon. The ending of Western economic imperialism, the admission of Rest of the World to Western markets and the ending of Bretton Woods. There is a reason why real household earnings of Americans rose 1940-1970 then flatlined until today, and it will only get worse into the future.

Besides, it is clear that the Chinese system of government has only been reinforced by the recent mass development of PRC. God knows what they will use that power for in 20 or 30 years when they'll be two to three times the size of the United States. We already have a good idea from the South China Sea and the Confucius Institute.

Good. The West needs to stop being greedy and let other nations breath for once.


For once, I agree with you.

Leave them alone, stop trading with them, stop outsourcing, stop being greedy for cheap labour and let them fend for themselves.
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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:15 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Good. The West needs to stop being greedy and let other nations breath for once.


For once, I agree with you.

Leave them alone, stop trading with them, stop outsourcing, stop being greedy for cheap labour and let them fend for themselves.

Stop trading? Why?
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Trumptonium
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Postby Trumptonium » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:42 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Trumptonium wrote:
For once, I agree with you.

Leave them alone, stop trading with them, stop outsourcing, stop being greedy for cheap labour and let them fend for themselves.

Stop trading? Why?


Undermines Western economies who are unable to compete.
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Postby Liriena » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 am

Uxupox wrote:Not our problem that the Haitians decided to be tolerant to their corrupted asshole dictator.

The words of someone who has clearly never lived under authoritarianism and doesn't know shit about what life under a dictatorship is like.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Stop trading? Why?


Undermines Western economies who are unable to compete.

https://www.thebalance.com/internationa ... my-3305579
There's good and bad to it. And if a nation is willing to trade, and might need to trade for certain reasons (they might not have what we have and vice versa), we should trade.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 am

but he's not a racist they say. And trump say he's a not a racist.
Last edited by San Lumen on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:58 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:Stop trading? Why?


Undermines Western economies who are unable to compete.

Then according to your beloved free market, shouldn't they die?
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:00 am

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:These are literally low-skilled labor visas.

I am no fan of Trump, but low-skill labor visas like H-2A and H-2B are literally for low-skill labor, which if you cry about them says more about you and what you think of Haitians and other sorts of immigrants than it does about Trump, that you think this is proper help, seasonal farm hands for the US at shit wages.

Pretty much this.

Also, it wasn't just Haitians who were banned. It was also Somoans and some other country I can't remember. This was done because they all had high rates of violating their visas. Something like 39% or whatever.
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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:01 am

Uxupox wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Except the Haitians didn't administer the aid themselves, as you well know (and if you don't then perhaps better to listen then make comments like this hm?).

To put it more simply, if you've got a dictator notorious for corruption, extortation and embezzlement, do you think that military and economic aid won't stick to his sticky fingers?

And if you ask why they didn't overthrow him, the fact he had an ample and ready supply of US bought weaponry for his army might've been a factor hmm?


Comments like this are the reason I cannot take your contribution to the topic seriously at this point. You know perfectly well the aid to Duvalier went to Duvalier, and essentially nowhere else. You also know precisely why that is.

If you don't, well perhaps you can learn something rather than making silly non-sequiters as a replacement for actual points.


Not our problem that the Haitians decided to be tolerant to their corrupted asshole dictator.


Perhaps not. You didn't have to live under them after all.

However, it does confirm my point that the US has a direct responsibility for at least continuing many of Haiti's present difficulties, despite attempts by Haitians to the contrary.


With that in mind, it has two options.

1: Get off Haiti's back and let the place develop.

2: Continue as it is, and take the consequences of that, including, not least, a large number of Haitians trying to get to the US.


As for the Trump folks saying they should look after their own first, either you're a world empire or you leave other nations alone. Not both. You folks often seem to change which one you favour whenever it's convenient.
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Petrasylvania
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Postby Petrasylvania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:04 am

Liriena wrote:
Uxupox wrote:Not our problem that the Haitians decided to be tolerant to their corrupted asshole dictator.

The words of someone who has clearly never lived under authoritarianism and doesn't know shit about what life under a dictatorship is like.

Haitians hate freedom. *nod*
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:07 am

Neutraligon wrote:What reason was given for them removing Hatians from the list?

High rates of violating their visas.
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:17 am

Cedoria wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
Not our problem that the Haitians decided to be tolerant to their corrupted asshole dictator.


Perhaps not. You didn't have to live under them after all.

However, it does confirm my point that the US has a direct responsibility for at least continuing many of Haiti's present difficulties, despite attempts by Haitians to the contrary.


With that in mind, it has two options.

1: Get off Haiti's back and let the place develop.

2: Continue as it is, and take the consequences of that, including, not least, a large number of Haitians trying to get to the US.


As for the Trump folks saying they should look after their own first, either you're a world empire or you leave other nations alone. Not both. You folks often seem to change which one you favour whenever it's convenient.

Corruption within the Haitian government is the fault of America because...
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:18 am

Kramania wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:What reason was given for them removing Hatians from the list?

High rates of violating their visas.

and the actions of few is grounds for punishing everyone?

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:18 am

Kramania wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Perhaps not. You didn't have to live under them after all.

However, it does confirm my point that the US has a direct responsibility for at least continuing many of Haiti's present difficulties, despite attempts by Haitians to the contrary.


With that in mind, it has two options.

1: Get off Haiti's back and let the place develop.

2: Continue as it is, and take the consequences of that, including, not least, a large number of Haitians trying to get to the US.


As for the Trump folks saying they should look after their own first, either you're a world empire or you leave other nations alone. Not both. You folks often seem to change which one you favour whenever it's convenient.

Corruption within the Haitian government is the fault of America because...

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/monr ... n-duvalier
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:22 am

San Lumen wrote:
Kramania wrote:High rates of violating their visas.

and the actions of few is grounds for punishing everyone?

The visas aren't meant to benefit Haitians. They're meant to benefit us. And if a particular group keeps abusing the system then yes, they can fuck off.
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:22 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramania wrote:Corruption within the Haitian government is the fault of America because...

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/monr ... n-duvalier

So intervention from almost a century ago explains why Haiti today is so infested with corruption?
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:25 am

Kramania wrote:
San Lumen wrote:and the actions of few is grounds for punishing everyone?

The visas aren't meant to benefit Haitians. They're meant to benefit us. And if a particular group keeps abusing the system then yes, they can fuck off.

again everyone should suffer for the actions of a few?

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Postby Liriena » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:27 am

Kramania wrote:

So intervention from almost a century ago explains why Haiti today is so infested with corruption?

It's not just that one invasion. Haiti has faced foreign intervention in some form or other since its independence, and much like the rest of Latin America, you can trace a lot of the corruption and authoritarianism experienced by Haitian society back to foreign economic and political interests.
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Political compass stuff:
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:28 am

San Lumen wrote:
Kramania wrote:The visas aren't meant to benefit Haitians. They're meant to benefit us. And if a particular group keeps abusing the system then yes, they can fuck off.

again everyone should suffer for the actions of a few?

That's how it works. I'm sorry that reality is so incomprehensible to you. Other countries have been banned as well. Somoa was also banned in this decision. But apparently we're only fired up about Haiti because Trump acknowledged that Haiti is a shithole.
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:30 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramania wrote:So intervention from almost a century ago explains why Haiti today is so infested with corruption?

It's not just that one invasion. Haiti has faced foreign intervention in some form or other since its independence, and much like the rest of Latin America, you can trace a lot of the corruption and authoritarianism experienced by Haitian society back to foreign economic and political interests.

As we all know no other country in the world has been ravaged by foreign interventionism and come out all right.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:31 am

Kramania wrote:
Liriena wrote:It's not just that one invasion. Haiti has faced foreign intervention in some form or other since its independence, and much like the rest of Latin America, you can trace a lot of the corruption and authoritarianism experienced by Haitian society back to foreign economic and political interests.

As we all know no other country in the world has been ravaged by foreign interventionism and come out all right.

Are you arguing that there is something specially and inherently wrong with Haitians as a people?
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I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Kramania
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Postby Kramania » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:36 am

Liriena wrote:
Kramania wrote:As we all know no other country in the world has been ravaged by foreign interventionism and come out all right.

Are you arguing that there is something specially and inherently wrong with Haitians as a people?

As a county, maybe. Not as a people.

There are many, many countries that have been ravaged far worse than Haiti by foreign intervention and are doing fairly well. This shtick of blaming America for every stubbed toe in Haiti is tiresome.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:38 am

Kramania wrote:
Liriena wrote:Are you arguing that there is something specially and inherently wrong with Haitians as a people?

As a county, maybe. Not as a people.

There are many, many countries that have been ravaged far worse than Haiti by foreign intervention and are doing fairly well. This shtick of blaming America for every stubbed toe in Haiti is tiresome.

it is flat out wrong to bar people simply because of where they are from.
Last edited by San Lumen on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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