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Obama Presidential Center

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the presidential center be built in the public park?

Yes
22
31%
No
48
69%
 
Total votes : 70

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The Grim Reaper
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Posts: 10442
Founded: Oct 08, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Grim Reaper » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:21 am

Xerographica wrote:
The Grim Reaper wrote:
My God, even you know how stupid your system is.

Individuals do not act so as to maximize utilities described in independently existing functions. They confront genuine choices, and the sequence of decisions taken may be conceptualized, ex post (after the choices), in terms of "as if" functions that are maximized. But these "as if" functions are, themselves, generated in the choosing process, not separately from such process. If viewed in this perspective, there is no means by which even the most idealized omniscient designer could duplicate the results of voluntary interchange. The potential participants do not know until they enter the process what their own choices will be. From this it follows that it is logically impossible for an omniscient designer to know, unless, of course, we are to preclude individual freedom of will. - James M. Buchanan, Order Defined in the Process of its Emergence


So you're saying that if this decision became available to you, you would suddenly be able to directly quantify the amount of money you're willing to spend.

How prescient.

Either your system is predicated on such an inordinate amount of gullibility that you've baked in price-anchoring as fundamental to the system's function, or you grabbed the first President you could think of because...I don't know, you think I give a shit about a guy who cared so little about his opinion he wouldn't even bankrupt himself by giving his money to an arbitrary charity to signal how important he thought he was.

You're using as a defense a quote from the single worst President in American history to justify as generalizable the very quote that I picked from you as a representation of your system's generalizable failure. It is fitting that someone whose legacy is synonymous with the rabid defense of arbitrary social structures based on the conflation of holding socioeconomic power with the capacity to exercise socioeconomic power is your preferred tipple.
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Community Values
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Posts: 2880
Founded: Nov 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Community Values » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:21 am

Xerographica wrote:
Community Values wrote:This isn't true. I could be spending based on use for others.

If you donate a lot of money to a soup kitchen then you must perceive that it's very useful to you if other people aren't starving to death.

I don't have to perceive it that way. In fact, I could perceive it as doing it out of the goodness of my heart.
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-Huey Long

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Roskian Federation
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Posts: 701
Founded: Jul 13, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Roskian Federation » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:24 am

they make a place with more jobs

alright

from what i've heard chicago is in a jobs shortage?
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Xerographica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:31 am

The Grene Knyght wrote:
Xerographica wrote:It's because people don't equally improve your economic circumstances.

Could be my sleep-deprived brain, but this sentence isn't making sense to me. Care to humour me for a moment, and rephrase it?

Everybody doesn't equally supply the things that you need to thrive.

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Bombadil
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Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:32 am

The sewer systems of Paris are somewhat instructive in this. When first proposed it obviously required taxes to be raised to build them. Naturally the elites were highly opposed to this given they could afford to move away from the excrement and related diseases as a result of growing city populations, horses and everything else.

Same arguments.. why are the government taking our money, it's too complicated and won't work, the science isn't in on disease and effluence.. pamphlets paid for, public opinion riled up..

Truth is given a choice of 'do something' and 'do nothing' people tend to choose 'do nothing', especially if 'do something' hits their pocket personally.

We couldn't imagine not living with a public sewer system now, if put to the vote no one would tick the box to dismantle it.

The choice is uneven in these cases, hence we have a mixture of consultations, some public opinion and etc., when making decisions, and we vote in those who broadly align with our ideals.. where, ideally, the elite few have slightly less influence than the mass.. (we still have elite media ownership, campaigns against science, basically selfish people who will fight against even a minimum increase in their taxes..)

We'd still be living in shit in your system given people don't know what it's like to not live in shit.

What about the Obama Presidential Centre, it could be a shining beacon to the idea you can still be the product of a single parent family, a mixed race misfit.. and still make it as President.. you don't know what you're voting for.
Last edited by Bombadil on Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125818
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:35 am

Xerographica wrote:
Vovodoco wrote:How big a majority? And why can't we just put it on the tax forms, "If you support the Obama monument, please check here to donate [absurdly small %or$] to its maintenance." And if not enough people support it, than shabam. It's obviously not worth forcing everyone to spend money on.
(Take note Xerographica, that was a reasonable application of micro-payments.)

The 20 acres of public park and the Obama presidential center are mutually exclusive. It's one or the other....

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What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
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Xerographica
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Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:38 am

The Grim Reaper wrote:You're using as a defense a quote from the single worst President in American history to justify as generalizable the very quote that I picked from you as a representation of your system's generalizable failure. It is fitting that someone whose legacy is synonymous with the rabid defense of arbitrary social structures based on the conflation of holding socioeconomic power with the capacity to exercise socioeconomic power is your preferred tipple.

We really could have used this in the game theory for baby names thread.

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Xerographica
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Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:47 am

Bombadil wrote:The sewer systems of Paris are somewhat instructive in this. When first proposed it obviously required taxes to be raised to build them. Naturally the elites were highly opposed to this given they could afford to move away from the excrement and related diseases as a result of growing city populations, horses and everything else.

This means that the terraces of the Champ-de-Mars are ordered first to be built up and then to be torn down. The great Napoleon, it is said, thought he was doing philanthropic work when he had ditches dug and then filled in. He also said: "What difference does the result make? All we need is to see wealth spread among the laboring classes." - Frédéric Bastiat, What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen

Government officials are better than the entire market at estimating the usefulness of things? I'm seriously skeptical.

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Bombadil
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:49 am

Xerographica wrote:
Bombadil wrote:The sewer systems of Paris are somewhat instructive in this. When first proposed it obviously required taxes to be raised to build them. Naturally the elites were highly opposed to this given they could afford to move away from the excrement and related diseases as a result of growing city populations, horses and everything else.

This means that the terraces of the Champ-de-Mars are ordered first to be built up and then to be torn down. The great Napoleon, it is said, thought he was doing philanthropic work when he had ditches dug and then filled in. He also said: "What difference does the result make? All we need is to see wealth spread among the laboring classes." - Frédéric Bastiat, What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen

Government officials are better than the entire market at estimating the usefulness of things? I'm seriously skeptical.


On at least two occasions in the late 1700s, Paris refused to build an updated water system that scientists had studied. Women were actually carrying water from the river Seine to their residences in buckets. Voltaire wrote about it, saying that they "will not begrudge money for a Comic Opera, but will complain about building aqueducts worthy of Augustus". Louis Pasteur himself lost three children to typhoid

Not just 'gub'mint' as you people so like to typify things, but the commissioning of experts and scientists to determine the best course and then putting in place.

Would you have put the design of the Apollo rocket to popular vote?
Last edited by Bombadil on Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Digital Planets
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Posts: 1835
Founded: Jul 27, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Digital Planets » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:50 am

I think it should be renamed the Trump Presidential Center and should be relocated to Sentinel Island.
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Xerographica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 am

Bombadil wrote:
Xerographica wrote:
Government officials are better than the entire market at estimating the usefulness of things? I'm seriously skeptical.


On at least two occasions in the late 1700s, Paris refused to build an updated water system that scientists had studied. Women were actually carrying water from the river Seine to their residences in buckets. Voltaire wrote about it, saying that they "will not begrudge money for a Comic Opera, but will complain about building aqueducts worthy of Augustus". Louis Pasteur himself lost three children to typhoid

Correctly grasping the usefulness of things depends on brainpower and information.

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Bombadil
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:56 am

Xerographica wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
On at least two occasions in the late 1700s, Paris refused to build an updated water system that scientists had studied. Women were actually carrying water from the river Seine to their residences in buckets. Voltaire wrote about it, saying that they "will not begrudge money for a Comic Opera, but will complain about building aqueducts worthy of Augustus". Louis Pasteur himself lost three children to typhoid

Correctly grasping the usefulness of things depends on brainpower and information.


What.. wait.. no.. the only value by your theory is the willingness of the general population to put money behind their vote.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125818
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:57 am

Bombadil wrote:
Xerographica wrote:
Government officials are better than the entire market at estimating the usefulness of things? I'm seriously skeptical.


On at least two occasions in the late 1700s, Paris refused to build an updated water system that scientists had studied. Women were actually carrying water from the river Seine to their residences in buckets. Voltaire wrote about it, saying that they "will not begrudge money for a Comic Opera, but will complain about building aqueducts worthy of Augustus". Louis Pasteur himself lost three children to typhoid

Not just 'gub'mint' as you people so like to typify things, but the commissioning of experts and scientists to determine the best course and then putting in place.

Would you have put the design of the Apollo rocket to popular vote?

Don't you know who you're talking to? Xero would have let people bid on the rocket design they felt would be most useful.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

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Bombadil
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 am

Ifreann wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
On at least two occasions in the late 1700s, Paris refused to build an updated water system that scientists had studied. Women were actually carrying water from the river Seine to their residences in buckets. Voltaire wrote about it, saying that they "will not begrudge money for a Comic Opera, but will complain about building aqueducts worthy of Augustus". Louis Pasteur himself lost three children to typhoid

Not just 'gub'mint' as you people so like to typify things, but the commissioning of experts and scientists to determine the best course and then putting in place.

Would you have put the design of the Apollo rocket to popular vote?

Don't you know who you're talking to? Xero would have let people bid on the rocket design they felt would be most useful.


Pokemon Rocket would be a hit regardless of the general explosions and loss of life.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Xerographica
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Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:00 am

Bombadil wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Correctly grasping the usefulness of things depends on brainpower and information.


What.. wait.. no.. the only value by your theory is the willingness of the general population to put money behind their vote.

People's willing to pay is based on their perception of usefulness.

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Bombadil
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Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:02 am

Xerographica wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
What.. wait.. no.. the only value by your theory is the willingness of the general population to put money behind their vote.

People's willing to pay is based on their perception of usefulness.


Sure, my Pokemon Rocket will defeat your He-Man Rocket.. answer the question.. is popular vote as expressed by monetary donation the only means of determining value?
Last edited by Bombadil on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Claorica
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Posts: 793
Founded: Aug 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Claorica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:03 am

Just like a democrat to demolish something that actually brings something to the community in order to stroke his ego.

No. It shouldn't be built where the park is, he can find somewhere else to build it, certainly there is somewhere else on the south side where there's some empty space to build on, or abandoned buildings that are already slated for demolition. Not like he even cares about Chicago considering he moved to DC to essentially be a thorn in anyone he disagrees with's side
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Washington Resistance Army
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Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:04 am

I'd much rather have a park than something like that in my neighborhood, tbh.
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Xerographica
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Posts: 5885
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:06 am

Bombadil wrote:
Xerographica wrote:People's willing to pay is based on their perception of usefulness.


Sure, my Pokemon Rocket will defeat your He-Man Rocket.. answer the question.. is popular vote as expressed by monetary donation the only means of determining value?

The market is the only effective way to determine how useful something is to society as a whole.

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Bombadil
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Posts: 8941
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 am

Xerographica wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Sure, my Pokemon Rocket will defeat your He-Man Rocket.. answer the question.. is popular vote as expressed by monetary donation the only means of determining value?

The market is the only effective way to determine how useful something is to society as a whole.


Well your regression to mantras is amusing at best.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125818
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:15 am

Bombadil wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Don't you know who you're talking to? Xero would have let people bid on the rocket design they felt would be most useful.


Pokemon Rocket would be a hit regardless of the general explosions and loss of life.

Something something blasting off again.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

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Alvecia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17360
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:33 am

Community Values wrote:
Xerographica wrote:If you donate a lot of money to a soup kitchen then you must perceive that it's very useful to you if other people aren't starving to death.

I don't have to perceive it that way. In fact, I could perceive it as doing it out of the goodness of my heart.

A fair point. Charity and altruism kind of poke a hole in your "people only pay for what they think is useful to them" theory Xero.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:04 am

Alvecia wrote:
Community Values wrote:I don't have to perceive it that way. In fact, I could perceive it as doing it out of the goodness of my heart.

A fair point. Charity and altruism kind of poke a hole in your "people only pay for what they think is useful to them" theory Xero.

So does the fact that people often lack the knowledge to know what is and is not useful. I will give an example. Let's say someone decided that they wanted to create a perpetual motion machine. This of course would be highly useful to society if we could get it to work. Now, are there enough people in society who know that this is impossible so that they won't end up funding what will be a useless attempt?

What people in general think will be useful might not actually be so.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Holy Tedalonia
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Founded: Nov 14, 2016
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Holy Tedalonia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:07 am

Ugh, we don't need a goddamn presidential center for a insignificant president.
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The East Marches II
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Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I'd much rather have a park than something like that in my neighborhood, tbh.


It's real crime is against your eyes. I rather liked Daley's old system of iron fences, marble and flower boxes tbh. That's a winning recipe. Not a building shaped like an Ikea lamp.
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