Why isn't Socialism/Communism as frowned upon as Fascism?

[Catalonya]

Many good arguments from all replies. Nice

In an ideal world, perfect ideologies made manifest would put into practice all the best policies of both Fascism and Socialism
Both sides would be happy, their dreams would come true, and no rivalry or hatred could break down their harmony

Their idealized ultimate forms do not come into conflict with one another. They are both twins of the same nature. They are two ideological sides of the same metaphysical coin.

They were even allied once....Ribbentrop-Molotov pact aesthetics

The only reason they fought was hatred, and lack of ideal service to both their peoples, which the regimes failed, because they were not perfect regimes but lined with imperfect people who often laymen. Profiteers, narcissists and hypocrites
If they had been regimes filled with decent, nice, fair, peace loving honorable citizens only, WW2 would not have happened, as they had the chance to bring about real World Peace together

Their regime's propaganda was only for the masses often than not, to get some lowly corrupt criminals into power, in the highest offices of Eurasian landmass.
That's why both regimes that had high potential for modernism, progression of noble civilization and european cultural values ... descended into common medieval primitivism and savage barbarism

Both regimes wasted their potential for greatness, sealing their own fates, betraying the peoples of the continents. Breaking promises because the best people were, as ever, mostly excluded from the regime. History all over again. The lowest swim to the top faster on the corpses of those they take advantage of, their stepping stones.

They wasted their chance to rewrite history into a work of art, for that main reason, which led to their two next capital mistakes. Uniting against the native population of their continents, exterminating us mercilessly instead of nurturing our lives in a humane civilized fashion.
The final and last, ultimate mistake was uniting against America. Incredibly stupid of both Axis and Soviets. That was their guillotine trip, their green mile.

True Fascism and Socialism NEVER EXISTED. Both regimes failed to deliver what they claimed to embody.
Those ideologies are just that. Ideals that cannot ever exist, because people are imperfect and the lowly will always drag down the best.
It all degenerates into their lowest common denominator. Violence, stupidity, parasitism. Cancer growing out of control.

Fascism and Socialism were never the problem. The Problem is Humanity. Hiding their cowardly malice behind perfect ideals and hypocritical promises.

Both ideologies inspire the best in the masses, only to use them for the very worst

A great communist could put fascism into practice if they put their mind to it, and had a motivation to, and it would turn out great, even if they didn't like it. Same with a great fascist, who could create a great socialist society. Neither one has to damage the values of the sister ideology.
It's hatred and the lowest animal nature of people that transform potential gold into pig sty mud.

Hatred started WW2. Humans possessed by it. Not Fascism or Communism. Those were just umbrellas against guilt. Scapegoats to avoid responsibility.

Guns don't kill people. Ideologies don't kill people. Stupidity and it's best weapons like hatred and greed, are the true silent killers.
Genocidal mass killers, that elude any ideology or manufactured tools. And don't call me a nihilist. In a way Nietzsche was right, and ahead of his time in seeing all these base tendencies that always chase the cake, and always get away with it.

Casting blame on collective thoughts is irresponsible. Blame the idiots in power who misused their influence to destroy our past and condemn our futures. It's the regime's crimes, not the ideologies they failed to emulate.

[Community Values]

ideologies that can't account for ""human nature"" are bad and should be blamed for being so grossly misused.

[Claorica]

And this is why I teeter between not taking Leftists seriously and considering Pinochetan tactics and liberal application of the sedition acts to put you people in jail. For years I always thought the joke about Pinochet’s helicopters being self-defense was just a joke, but two of you are advocating violent revolution. And while I still prefer the idea of just shutting people who espouse your “revolutionary” ideas in insane asylums to just killing them, I can see why this jone/statement is being made when one of your leftist allies in this thread has made direct notion of wiping out the bourgeoisie. This type of rhetoric is warming me up to Falangism, Francoism, and Pinochetism.

Are you a worker or a capitalist? If you are the latter, I can't blame you. If you are the former, then you are being foolish, and should join us instead.

I don't blame people for supporting a dictatorship that defends their class interests and being willing to use repression against the opposition. I only warn working class people (who are the great majority) not to support right-wing dictatorships, because they are directly opposed to our class interests. If you are a member of the working class (which, statistically speaking, you probably are), then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests, and - as you can see - we do not shy away from doing whatever it takes to defend them.

I’m a working capitalist. My family, including myself, has decent money but only because we put blood sweat and tears into the ground for centuries in a history of being in the trenches that only a poor, unemployed communist or a very rich capitalist would scowl at. Certainly I’m not ready to let a bunch of lefties kill us just so they can wildly mismanage agriculture and then target the resulting famine at people they find undesirable.

[War Gears]

then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests,

No, you fight for what your idealized conception of what class interests are, and are happy to oppress those members of the working class who don't agree with you. Whether anarchist territories such as Catalonia or Ukraine, or Marxist-Leninist states.

and - as you can see - we do not shy away from doing whatever it takes to defend them.

Lol.

[Catalonya]

Are you a worker or a capitalist? If you are the latter, I can't blame you. If you are the former, then you are being foolish, and should join us instead.

I don't blame people for supporting a dictatorship that defends their class interests and being willing to use repression against the opposition. I only warn working class people (who are the great majority) not to support right-wing dictatorships, because they are directly opposed to our class interests. If you are a member of the working class (which, statistically speaking, you probably are), then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests, and - as you can see - we do not shy away from doing whatever it takes to defend them.

What about a right-wing dictatorship that fought for the proletariat?
Workers are the lifeblood of any nation, even if it is authoritarian or not.

Why would a left-wing internationalist body be more on the worker's side than a centrist or right-wing one? Simply because it said so?
Proof or else, comrade.

If you wanna get ideological, and logical.....class system itself is a form of institutionalized slavery, because it is capitalist and allows the rich to exploit the poor through labor.

Communism is just a dictatorial regime of capitalists. Except the capitalists are all Party members instead of private citizens like in the west.
Communism is extremely capitalist, without the motto to hide behind of promoting worker's needs, while ironically denying them private property and democratic privileges, this would be painfully obvious.

In this regard it is identical to Italian Fascism. Only slavic and in Russia. With Eastern Russian Schismatic Church instead of Pope's Roman Catholic Vatican Church

[The Widening Gyre]

a very rich capitalist

You mean like the people who put Pinochet in power, and would not shed a single tear in tearing down your family's prosperity if it meant preserving their own?

[The Grene Knyght]

Communism is extremely capitalist

Amazing.

[Claorica]

a very rich capitalist

You mean like the people who put Pinochet in power, and would not shed a single tear in tearing down your family's prosperity if it meant preserving their own?

No, I mean the type of people who support capitalist progressivism, those that are so wealthy that they are above any of us and ultimately are above anything the government decides.

[Purpelia]

Many good arguments from all replies. Nice

In an ideal world, perfect ideologies made manifest would put into practice all the best policies of both Fascism and Socialism
Both sides would be happy, their dreams would come true, and no rivalry or hatred could break down their harmony

Their idealized ultimate forms do not come into conflict with one another. They are both twins of the same nature. They are two ideological coins of the same metaphysical coin.

They were even allied once....Ribbentrop-Molotov pact aesthetics

The only reason they fought was hatred, and lack of ideal service to both their peoples, which the regimes failed, because they were not perfect regimes but lined with imperfect people who often laymen. Profiteers, narcissists and hypocrites
If they had been regimes filled with decent, nice, fair, peace loving honorable citizens only, WW2 would not have happened, as they had the chance to bring about real World Peace together

Their regime's propaganda was only for the masses often than not, to get some lowly corrupt criminals into power, in the highest offices of Eurasian landmass.
That's why both regimes that had high potential for modernism, progression of noble civilization and european cultural values ... descended into common medieval primitivism and savage barbarism

Both regimes wasted their potential for greatness, sealing their own fates, betraying the peoples of the continents. Breaking promises because the best people were, as ever, mostly excluded from the regime. History all over again. The lowest swim to the top faster on the corpses of those they take advantage of, their stepping stones.

They wasted their chance to rewrite history into a work of art, for that main reason, which led to their two next capital mistakes. Uniting against the native population of their continents, exterminating us mercilessly instead of nurturing our lives in a humane civilized fashion.
The final and last, ultimate mistake was uniting against America. Incredibly stupid of both Axis and Soviets. That was their guillotine trip, their green mile.

True Fascism and Socialism NEVER EXISTED. Both regimes failed to deliver what they claimed to embody.
Those ideologies are just that. Ideals that cannot ever exist, because people are imperfect and the lowly will always drag down the best.
It all degenerates into their lowest common denominator. Violence, stupidity, parasitism. Cancer growing out of control.

Fascism and Socialism were never the problem. The Problem is Humanity. Hiding their cowardly malice behind perfect ideals and hypocritical promises.

Both ideologies inspire the best in the masses, only to use them for the very worst

A great communist could put fascism into practice if they put their mind to it, and had a motivation to, and it would turn out great, even if they didn't like it. Same with a great fascist, who could create a great socialist society. Neither one has to damage the values of the sister ideology.
It's hatred and the lowest animal nature of people that transform potential gold into pig sty mud.

Hatred started WW2. Humans possessed by it. Not Fascism or Communism. Those were just umbrellas against guilt. Scapegoats to avoid responsibility.

Guns don't kill people. Ideologies don't kill people. Stupidity and it's best weapons like hatred and greed, are the true silent killers.
Genocidal mass killers, that elude any ideology or manufactured tools. And don't call me a nihilist. In a way Nietzsche was right, and ahead of his time in seeing all these base tendencies that always chase the cake, and always get away with it.

Casting blame on collective thoughts is irresponsible. Blame the idiots in power who misused their influence to destroy our past and condemn our futures. It's the regime's crimes, not the ideologies they failed to emulate.

Simple question:

What is the functional difference between a system that works good but only if the people inside it are good and a system that works bad all the time if people are not good?

And we actually agree that people are scum and not good. That is why I am asking this.

[The Widening Gyre]

No, I mean the type of people who support capitalist progressivism,

So the people who put Pinochet in power. Gotcha.

those that are so wealthy that they are above any of us and ultimately are above anything the government decides.

Clearly not, since they put Pinochet in power for a reason. That and history has repeatedly shown that state power can and does have the ability to cast down the capitalist class if it so chooses. Whether or not that's a good thing or if they permanently manage to dislodge them is a matter of each specific case though.

[Catalonya]

then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests,

No, you fight for what your idealized conception of what class interests are, and are happy to oppress those members of the working class who don't agree with you. Whether anarchist territories such as Catalonia or Ukraine, or Marxist-Leninist states.

With all due respect, Catalonia is not anarchist like Novo Rossiya. It is not violent separatist or anti-democratic, or pro-russian satellite puppet pseudo state.

It is a historic european sovereign region country, with it's own culture, language, and history that was annexed by brute force by Filip the 2nd. In the same way that Crimea was annexed by Putin.

Catalonians do not hate the Spanish state or their country of spaniards. They fight democratically, with legal elections and legal referendums to be their own liberated state again. Resisting peacefully against Madrid's anti-catalan policies of brainwashing catalan children in schools with pro-madrid dogmas.

What Spain is doing is identical to what Russia is doing to Crimea. Except Crimea is Ukraine, while Catalonia is Catalonia and doesn't want to join France or any other hybrid warfare enemy of Spain.

Catalonian Independence is as european and culturally historic as Scottish Independence. Antithetic to russian little green men and their tanks, artillery and mortar barrages killing civilians.

Spain is a backwards monarchy like UK. Not a modern republic like Ukraine. Or a historic autonomous region and former country in the middle ages, of it's own state and sovereignty, as Scotland and Catalonia were.

You are free to disagree, I was writing this as a clarification for general opinions which are often uninformed being from outside Europe, and full of public misconceptions made by spanish propagandists who hate european democracy

[The Grene Knyght]

No, you fight for what your idealized conception of what class interests are, and are happy to oppress those members of the working class who don't agree with you. Whether anarchist territories such as Catalonia or Ukraine, or Marxist-Leninist states.

With all due respect, Catalonia is not anarchist like Novo Rossiya. It is not violent separatist or anti-democratic, or pro-russian satellite puppet pseudo state.

It is a historic european sovereign region country, with it's own culture, language, and history that was annexed by brute force by Filip the 2nd. In the same way that Crimea was annexed by Putin.

Catalonians do not hate the Spanish state or their country of spaniards. They fight democratically, with legal elections and legal referendums to be their own liberated state again. Resisting peacefully against Madrid's anti-catalan policies of brainwashing catalan children in schools with pro-madrid dogmas.

What Spain is doing is identical to what Russia is doing to Crimea. Except Crimea is Ukraine, while Catalonia is Catalonia and doesn't want to join France or any other hybrid warfare enemy of Spain.

Catalonian Independence is as european and culturally historic as Scottish Independence. Antithetic to russian little green men and their tanks, artillery and mortar barrages killing civilians.

Spain is a backwards monarchy like UK. Not a modern republic like Ukraine. Or a historic autonomous region and former country in the middle ages, of it's own state and sovereignty, as Scotland and Catalonia were.

You are free to disagree, I was writing this as a clarification for general opinions which are often uninformed being from outside Europe, and full of public misconceptions made by spanish propagandists who hate european democracy

I think WG was referring to the historic instances of Ukraine and Catalonia having anarchist revolutions that were crushed by the USSR (i.e. during the spanish civil war, in the case of Catalonia).

[Catalonya]

ideologies that can't account for ""human nature"" are bad and should be blamed for being so grossly misused.

No ideology is perfect, if it is thought up by an imperfect human with an imperfect mind.
You are correct to blame the founders of the ideologies, for not accounting for future human collective stupidity

Which always corrupts even a perfected ideology. Stupidity is corruption. Corruption is stupidity.
Ideology is not even a trait, just a blameless construct
Founders and imperfect followers carry maximum blame, as you wisely completed.
Excellent point, indeed.

[Constantinopolis]

Are you a worker or a capitalist? If you are the latter, I can't blame you. If you are the former, then you are being foolish, and should join us instead.

I don't blame people for supporting a dictatorship that defends their class interests and being willing to use repression against the opposition. I only warn working class people (who are the great majority) not to support right-wing dictatorships, because they are directly opposed to our class interests. If you are a member of the working class (which, statistically speaking, you probably are), then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests, and - as you can see - we do not shy away from doing whatever it takes to defend them.

I’m a working capitalist. My family, including myself, has decent money but only because we put blood sweat and tears into the ground for centuries in a history of being in the trenches that only a poor, unemployed communist or a very rich capitalist would scowl at. Certainly I’m not ready to let a bunch of lefties kill us just so they can wildly mismanage agriculture and then target the resulting famine at people they find undesirable.

I don't scowl at hard work. Communism is about the working class - the whole working class, not only the poorest. We are very much concerned about the poorest, of course, but historically it was factory workers who formed the backbone of the communist movement - i.e. people whose income was below average, but not the lowest. You know that our slogan is "workers of the world, unite!". That means all the workers. Everyone who puts blood, sweat and tears into making a living.

I have no idea what you mean by a "working capitalist". A worker is a person who works for a living (i.e. who derives most of his income from his labour). A capitalist is a person who relies mostly on property income for a living (i.e. who derives most of his income from business profits, or from charging rent on land that he owns, or from lending money at an interest). Of course, there are some people who are somewhere in between, but they are extremely few in number.

Having "decent money" doesn't make you a capitalist. In fact, if you're not rich, then it's very unlikely that you are a capitalist.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about us "mismanaging agriculture" if I were you. The days when most agriculture was done by peasants and when the collectivization of their small plots was an issue, are long gone. Nearly all modern agriculture is large-scale and highly mechanized. Collectivization of agriculture is not a thing that can ever happen again, especially not in the developed world. Rather, we would simply nationalize the already-existing large agri-business corporations.

then come join the revolutionary left instead. We fight for your class interests,

No, you fight for what your idealized conception of what class interests are, and are happy to oppress those members of the working class who don't agree with you.

I'm not.

The fact that state repression was extended to workers instead of being limited to the (ex-)capitalists, was one of the serious problems with 20th century Marxism-Leninism.

We have to make it absolutely clear to everyone, including to ourselves, that ALL the workers are either allies or potential allies. Many of them don't agree with us, of course, and our job is to persuade them. If we're not persuading them, that's an indication that we're doing something wrong and may need to change course. If we suppressed all opposition (rather than merely the capitalist opposition), then we would have no way to know when we're doing something wrong. And then we'd end up like the USSR.

[Catalonya]

I think WG was referring to the historic instances of Ukraine and Catalonia having anarchist revolutions that were crushed by the USSR (i.e. during the spanish civil war, in the case of Catalonia).

If so, then Catalonia was legally allied to the Republican Socialist Legal Government of Pre-Francoist Spain, and has a historic right to exist, even if it was wrong to ally with Stalin and the Socialist Internationale in the Civil War

But Ukraine never had an anarchist revolution. It had a nationalist revolution led by the Green Army. Which the Red Army used to defeat the Imperial White Army that saw ukraine as russian property, and betrayed to assimilate them into the Red Army. Eventually the Green Army won, took over CCCP with Hruschev, and gave Ukraine it's present national independence legally and fairly after the non-democratic soviet union lost the Cold War to America+EU+NATO

Catalonia is also a Nation within a nation. Not just a region. The moment it rejected being a region of another state, it became it's own state. Autonomy becomes Independence, morally and democratically.
Spanish police thugs cannot change that aspect.

Simple question:

What is the functional difference between a system that works good but only if the people inside it are good and a system that works bad all the time if people are not good?

And we actually agree that people are scum and not good. That is why I am asking this.

A competent system employs the best people available to give life to it's ideals and create positive results and effects
Cars require extremely complex mechanic and chemical, even biological conditions to function, does that make them obsolete or useless?


I'm glad we do. They are at the heart of all our world's problems, and always have been. Hopefully not always will be...

Any system works bad if the people are bad. Even if it were the best or worst system available, it is at the cruel mercy of it's user. The operator who uses the OS is responsible for the failings of the PC. The errors should be there to prevent the user from misusing the OS, instead they are implemented by the founder of the OS-ideology, to enable abuse by future users.

The founder of a corrupt system of abuse is the enabler, it's abusers are their accomplices.
But even the worst systems can be used for good, by someone with pure will and effectiveness.

Both systems are equally weak to abuse, as they were designed so by the founders to be weaponized by the criminal masses who are their silent accomplices

The best system is a fluid, adapting one that evolves and changes positively instead of remaining rigid and flawed to be abused by criminal instincts

Most systems were created by criminals, for criminals, against the masses. The masses rarely have what it takes to create a system on their own. Though modernly democracy allows this. Anyone with a brilliant vision has even a remote chance to be seen by the masses and create a new positive system, or correct and take over a weak, corrupt one, and make it work for the masses, or for people who aren't simply scum.

Ideally, any system whether good or bad, should mainly be used against scum. So scum cannot use it against everyone else.
Satisfactory answer? If not, feel free to follow up with more questions.

[The Grene Knyght]

I think WG was referring to the historic instances of Ukraine and Catalonia having anarchist revolutions that were crushed by the USSR (i.e. during the spanish civil war, in the case of Catalonia).

If so, then Catalonia was legally allied to the Republican Socialist Legal Government of Pre-Francoist Spain, and has a historic right to exist, even if it was wrong to ally with Stalin and the Socialist Internationale in the Civil War

But Ukraine never had an anarchist revolution. It had a nationalist revolution led by the Green Army. Which the Red Army used to defeat the Imperial White Army that saw ukraine as russian property, and betrayed to assimilate them into the Red Army. Eventually the Green Army won, took over CCCP with Hruschev, and gave Ukraine it's present national independence legally and fairly after the non-democratic soviet union lost the Cold War to America+EU+NATO

Catalonia is also a Nation within a nation. Not just a region. The moment it rejected being a region of another state, it became it's own state. Autonomy becomes Independence, morally and democratically.
Spanish police thugs cannot change that aspect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

Also, I don't see why you keep bringing up Catalan independence. Seems pretty irrelevant to the topic. Go find the catalonia thread

[Claorica]

I’m a working capitalist. My family, including myself, has decent money but only because we put blood sweat and tears into the ground for centuries in a history of being in the trenches that only a poor, unemployed communist or a very rich capitalist would scowl at. Certainly I’m not ready to let a bunch of lefties kill us just so they can wildly mismanage agriculture and then target the resulting famine at people they find undesirable.

I don't scowl at hard work. Communism is about the working class - the whole working class, not only the poorest. We are very much concerned about the poorest, of course, but historically it was factory workers who formed the backbone of the communist movement - i.e. people whose income was below average, but not the lowest. You know that our slogan is "workers of the world, unite!". That means all the workers. Everyone who puts blood, sweat and tears into making a living.

I have no idea what you mean by a "working capitalist". A worker is a person who works for a living (i.e. who derives most of his income from his labour). A capitalist is a person who relies mostly on property income for a living (i.e. who derives most of his income from business profits, or from charging rent on land that he owns, or from lending money at an interest). Of course, there are some people who are somewhere in between, but they are extremely few in number.

Having "decent money" doesn't make you a capitalist. In fact, if you're not rich, then it's very unlikely that you are a capitalist.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about us "mismanaging agriculture" if I were you. The days when most agriculture was done by peasants and when the collectivization of their small plots was an issue, are long gone. Nearly all modern agriculture is large-scale and highly mechanized. Collectivization of agriculture is not a thing that can ever happen again, especially not in the developed world. Rather, we would simply nationalize the already-existing large agri-business corporations.

By working capitalist I mean this: we are well off, in most of the world, and depending on the location in parts of the US, people would consider us “rich.” Our net worth is in the millions and our income is easily in the top 5-10%. However that net worth is almost entirely in assets and that income is mostly invested in improving our ability to work the land (which includes both land we own personally and land which we cropshare on or are tenants of)

I would argue your point about large agribusiness corporations as, while there is one large multinat in my area (and one massive family farm), the area is still mostly dominated by family farms that top out at ~1500 acres, with even most of that usually being farming someone else who is too old to farm and has no heirs or who’s elected to go urban.

[Novowarsawianka]

[snip]

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that it was a bad political move, from the capitalist point of view, to ally with fascism against communism. Obviously it was a good move and a good strategy, which had massive benefits for their side, both expected and unexpected (the Great Depression might have never ended without WW2, or ended much later, and in such a scenario it would have been plausible that a wave of communist revolutions may have swept across the industrialized world - so fascism, by starting WW2, may have provided a great unexpected benefit to capitalism).

Really, from the capitalist point of view, the whole fascist period ended with the best possible outcome: the fascists and the communists spent most of their resources fighting each other, liberal capitalism regained a major foothold in continental Europe (after being on the brink of total collapse in the 1930s), and the war ended the Great Depression and ushered in a period of great economic growth and expansion in the capitalist world. The communists did gain half of Europe as a result, but they lost any hope of a working class revolution in the West.

I pointed out that the capitalists sided with fascism in the 20s and 30s in response to Oil exporting People's claim that "Fascism doesn't serve the interests of the elites." The point is that fascism does serve the interests of the elites, and in fact it was precisely because fascism served the interests of the elites that it managed to come to power in most of the places where it did.

The elites, of course, had every reason to ally with fascism and it was a perfectly logical move. I don't criticize my enemies for using effective strategies to destroy me. It's the logical thing to do. If I were a capitalist, I'd support fascism too.

Now, if only the working class was also willing to do whatever it takes to destroy our capitalist enemies, then we'd be getting somewhere.

It makes sense for them to use fascism to crush us. It also makes sense for us to use revolution to overthrow them. They offer no quarter, and we should offer them none. Class war is war.

Must I remind you that it was the old German aristocratic elites that sent Lenin to Russia to start the revolution? It made sense for them to use Communists to crush Russia from within, and it more than payed off.
The German-Soviet joint offensive against Poland also payed off for both sides at the cost of Poland and it's people.

There are so few stable alliances, and none are made of drastically different peers. Capitalists might ally with Fascists, but also with Communists, Fascists and Communists too, even Communists and Monarchists.
Your whole point about "Capitalism and Fascism being on one side" is simply wrong. Not even Fascists are on the same side at times, as shown by Fascist Austria's persecution of Nazis, and to my knowledge, those of the Polish fascists that survived, went on to fight in the underground movement.


And again with all the warmongering. I hope you do understand that it is more than just likely that someone will abuse your "revolution" to gain a foothold as a dictator once more? I mean, thankfully it would fail, but the simple attempt ruins enough lives and deal a huge blow to the society. Sure, it would make Communism forever vilified, which is fine, but human lives are worth more than vilifying a failed ideology.
You go on about as if none of the people you claim to care for would suffer because of your hunger for "revolution". Your ideology might at best, if at all, help about 10-15% of the people in developed nations. You are risking the lives of all people to arguably improve the lives of such a few? You would diminish the individual and economic freedoms of almost everyone in those countries, not to forget that you wish to bring civil war to countries which have not, thankfully, seen war in many decades, nor should they ever again.

You go on as if war was a trivial thing, especially civil war. Why are you different from the Fascists? You both talk about war as something which is harmless as long as it is done for some "noble" cause, you both love to generalize, as you do love to do with your "the poor are never to blame, all capitalist are evil" mentality.

[War Gears]

If so, then Catalonia was legally allied to the Republican Socialist Legal Government of Pre-Francoist Spain, and has a historic right to exist, even if it was wrong to ally with Stalin and the Socialist Internationale in the Civil War

Revolutionary Catalonia was known to persecute the religious and to coerce farmers into joining collectives, which is what I am referring to.

But Ukraine never had an anarchist revolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

[Catalonya]

You go on as if war was a trivial thing, especially civil war. Why are you different from the Fascists? You both talk about war as something which is harmless as long as it is done for some "noble" cause, you both love to generalize, as you do love to do with your "the poor are never to blame, all capitalist are evil" mentality.

Christians have this crusader mentality of holy war justifies the crimes we must commit, because it's not sadism if God indirectly says it's mandatory and sacred
Projects that antisocial mentality to communism.
....
????
PROFIT

If so, then Catalonia was legally allied to the Republican Socialist Legal Government of Pre-Francoist Spain, and has a historic right to exist, even if it was wrong to ally with Stalin and the Socialist Internationale in the Civil War

Revolutionary Catalonia was known to persecute the religious and to coerce farmers into joining collectives, which is what I am referring to.

as part of the secular gov't policies against catholicism, famous for it's Inquisitions

the last century was modern only in crime, never mentality

all regimes ran and elected by men were killer in nature. the legacy of medieval europe rife with violence where death was currency
that was the last millenium, religion is dead now in EU

[Catalonya]

If so, then Catalonia was legally allied to the Republican Socialist Legal Government of Pre-Francoist Spain, and has a historic right to exist, even if it was wrong to ally with Stalin and the Socialist Internationale in the Civil War

Revolutionary Catalonia was known to persecute the religious and to coerce farmers into joining collectives, which is what I am referring to.

as part of the secular gov't policies against catholicism, famous for it's Inquisitions

the last century was modern only in crime, never mentality

all regimes ran and elected by men were killer in nature. the legacy of medieval europe rife with violence where death was currency
that was the last millenium, religion is dead now in EU

[Salus Maior]

You go on as if war was a trivial thing, especially civil war. Why are you different from the Fascists? You both talk about war as something which is harmless as long as it is done for some "noble" cause, you both love to generalize, as you do love to do with your "the poor are never to blame, all capitalist are evil" mentality.

Christians have this crusader mentality of holy war justifies the crimes we must commit, because it's not sadism if God indirectly says it's mandatory and sacred
Projects that antisocial mentality to communism.
....
????
PROFIT

No, not generally.

[The Grene Knyght]

Revolutionary Catalonia was known to persecute the religious and to coerce farmers into joining collectives, which is what I am referring to.

as part of the secular gov't policies against catholicism, famous for it's Inquisitions

the last century was modern only in crime, never mentality

all regimes ran and elected by men were killer in nature. the legacy of medieval europe rife with violence where death was currency
that was the last millenium, religion is dead now in EU

Just a small suggestion, feel free to ignore it, and please don't be offended, but you should really, really read up a lot more on catalonia under the CNT-FAI during the spanish civil war before you make assertions about it. Like, even some cursory knowledge from wikipedia would be useful I think.

[Catalonya]

No, not generally.

Specifically for the user in question, whom i hope i'm not offending by talking about in the IIIrd person
I wasn't completely generalizing, just particularizing to some communists who are christians, and viceversa

As they are free to generalize fascists as having the same character of bloody crusaders

Needless to say, not all christians were crusaders. Very few christians joined the Crusades, many were too pacifist or cowardly or unmotivated or preferred an easy life back home, *cough* Pope *cough*

[Claorica]

No, not generally.

Specifically for the user in question, whom i hope i'm not offending by talking about in the IIIrd person
I wasn't completely generalizing, just particularizing to some communists who are christians, and viceversa

As they are free to generalize fascists as having the same character of bloody crusaders

Needless to say, not all christians were crusaders. Very few christians joined the Crusades, many were too pacifist or cowardly or unmotivated or preferred an easy life back home, *cough* Pope *cough*

Not to mention most of the crusaders were there under the belief that it was a retaliatory action (it was) against centuries of violent Muslim conquests, and that it also was standard for attackers to slaughter and massacre cities that refused to discuss terms at the beginning of a siege, as urban combat was dangerous, bloody, and brought hardship on everyone.